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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.

YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com

All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.

Wednesday, January 19, 2005

Mike Gets Hands On: Sony HDR-FX1 (HDV) vs Sony F900 (HDCAM) Footage Comparison 

For the zillionth time, somebody asked me about the quality differences between HDV and a traditional "real" HD camera. The person emailing was saying they could get "HD quality" out of the camera, so why pay 30 times as much? After explaining about the differences in the electronics, the dynamic range, the optics, the compression involved with each format, they asked a very obvious question:

How much difference does it make?

...and I didn't have a concrete answer for them.

So I decided to get one.

In short, this is a rough comparison between the two cameras, not a completely thorough analysis covering all situations. It's a bit of an ICBM vs a bottle rocket comparison, but hey, folks want to know...

The Cameras

Sony HDR-FX1

This is the $3500 new 1080i60 camera that has everyone excited. (I've written extensively about it before, use the Google bar at the top of this page and search for "FX1" for lots of coverage.) It uses 3 CCDs that are 960x1080, with the green pixels offset halfway between the red and blue, which buys you some more resolution. Sony claims an effective resolution of 1440x1080, I'm not sure it really sure it really delivers that much.

The lense used on this consumer camera pretty much moots that argument anyway - it's better than most prosumer lenses, but having the optical resolving power for 1440x1080 takes a LOT of precision. It's not here.

It records to the HDV format, which is a highly compressed MPEG-2 transport stream, with a GOP size of 15. GOP stands for Group of Pictures. This means that every 15th frame is a full update of the entire frame, and the next 15 essentially just record changes from the previous frame. So that if you lose a frame due to tape failure, you can lose up to 15 frames of video - 1/2 a second. Eek.

This data is recorded onto inexpensive DV format tapes. Sony makes special HDV tape that supposedly is more robust.

The original image, which if recorded in uncompressed RGB (red/green/blue) would be about 190 MB/sec. Instead you get about 3.125 MB/sec. This is because the video gets compressed using the MPEG-2 codec, which is usually used for delivery, when you want just enough visual data, instead of for acquisition, when you want as much as feasibly possible. This can cause problems later in post when you want to color correct the footage, when that "just enough" approach may be not quite enough.

Audio is compressed, unlike with DV, using MPEG 1, Layer 2 technology. This worries some of the audio guys I know. Even lowly DV records uncompressed audio.

So, in brief:

Camera: Sony HDR-FX1
Cost: $3500ish street
Image acquisition: 3 CCDs, 960x1080, arguably 1440x1080
Color Space: 8 bit 4:2:0 YCrCb
Recording media: small form factor DV tapes - if shooting serious stuff, consider the "special for HDV" tapes
Recording format: HDV - 1440x1080 recorded in 8 bit YCrCb, compressed with MPEG-2 TS using GOP of 15 to 3.125 MB/sec
Ingest: via FireWire, built into all modern Macs and included or available on PCs via PCI cards
and in this corner....

Sony F900/3

This is Sony's first camera that could shoot 24p, in addition to 25p, 30p, 50i and 60i. They revved the camera twice, so it's now the mark 3 camera. Ian Ellis of Texas High Def was kind enough to bring his over for testing of my new uncompressed HD to hard disk product I'm working on (but that's another story altogether).

The camera has 3 2.2 million pixel CCDs, capable of true 1920x1080 image acquisition. It can handle interchangeable lenses of extremely high quality (and cost). It can record 23.976,24, 25, 29.97, or 30 progressive frames per second, or 50 or 59.94 interlaced frames per second, all to the same HDCAM format tape. The HDCAM format drops the 10 bit, 1920x1080 signal down to 8 bit, 1440x1080 before compressing it with a JPEG-like compression algorithm down to about 22 MB/sec from what could have been a 240 MB/sec data stream.

What can I say? It's an extremely high quality professional tool with tons of controls made to be used under demanding professional environments. It also lists for over $100,000.

In short:
Camera: Sony F900/3
Cost: around $100,000 list price
Image acquisition: 3 2.2 million pixel CCDs, delivering 1920x1080 pixels at 10 bits/channel
Color Space: 10 bit 4:2:2 YCrCb (camera, available from HD-SDI tap), 8 bit 4:2:2 (internally 3:1:1) on HDCAM
Recording media: HDCAM tape
Recording format: HDCAM - 1440x1080 recorded in 8 bit YCrCb, compressed with using DCT like algorithms to 22.5 MB/sec
Ingest: via HD-SDI, available as a third party add-in board for Macs and PCs, starting at $600 (DeckLink HD) and up. $2500 or so will get you a nice card for Mac or PC.

OK, to the meat of this thing: In usage.

Comparison of footage

I still don't have an HDR-FX1 to play with, so I downloaded some of the raw .m2t files from the internet (you can get the same clips from here). This is the raw, source, directly from camera stuff you get when you copy the bits over FireWire from the camera. To be clear, this is EXACTLY what is recorded to tape from the camera. There are several outdoor shots - panning shots of a country club and it's lawn and trees, driving down the road in a car, stuff like that. I converted these files using LumiereHD version 1.5b9, which can now capture footage from the HDR-FX1 but can't (yet) get it back out to tape. I converted those source files to uncompressed QuickTime media so that there would be no image degradation and I could work with the footage in After Effects and Final Cut Pro.

I also have some footage from the Sony F900 that was shot from my front porch as we tested my new uncompressed HD to disk device I'm developing (more later on that). To be fair, I used the 8 bit footage captured from tape, not the source 10 bit footage I'd recorded to disk.

Both sets of footage were shot on sunny days outdoors, which somewhat levels the playing field.

HDR-FX1 1080i60 HDV Analysis

Here's my notes on what I discovered about HDV, really getting into the 1080i footage for the first time:

-viewed at a "pixel for pixel" level, it's not as good as good DV. By this I mean that if you were to look at a DV sized (720x480) chunk of image, it looks like consumer grade DV. Not really good DV, just good consumer DV.

-stepping back, looking at the full 1440x1080 image (stretched to 1920x1080), it's clearly miles better than DV in terms of detail and resolution. This makes sense - It's got 4 1/2 times as many pixels recorded to tape as DV does.

-footage of fire causes problems due to 4:2:0 issues. What's 4:2:0 mean? I'll explain 4:4:4 and work from there. It means for every group of 4 pixels, all 4 pixels' worth of information is recorded for the Y (luminance/brightness), Cr (component red), and Cb (component blue). For 4:2:2, all 4 pixels of Y are recorded, but only 2 pixels worth of color (the Cr & Cb). Each group of two pixels is averaged together to make only 2 values recorded. For DV, which is 4:1:1, only 1/4 as much color information is recorded as brightness information. HDV is a 4:2:0 codec, meaning for one frame 4:2:0 is recorded (4 of Y, 2 of Cr, none of Cb), and for the next frame, 4:0:2 is recorded (4 of Y again, but now none of Cr and 2 of Cb). The Cr and Cb take turns essentially every other frame. This trick usually works, except in video footage where the color changes a lot from frame to frame, such as footage of fire. You get streaks of color every other horizontal line, remnants of the color info from the previous frame. HDCAM never does this

-HDV looks very consumer quality, even when scaled down to standard definition. Technically the pixels might be in there, but what's making the pixels is miles apart from pro level gear. Pay 30 times more, it's going to look substantially better. Gee, big surprise...

-pushing the footage in post to color correct will break it pretty quickly. Some of my sample footage survived a push of +45 (using the Hue/Saturation controls in After Effects) and a gamma tweak of 1.15, but some didn't. Sky footage, for example, showed noticeable blocking in the raw footage, and when color corrected to give a pleasing saturation, it had EXTREMELY visible blocking, distractingly so. Think BAD digital cable.

-Mosquito noise was prevalent in any shot with a lot of fine detail. If you don't know what mosquito noise is in video, Google it. It's an artifact of compression, it shows up particularly clearly when you have fine detail next to a flat color, like small tree leaves against a sky. Once color corrected, it was very apparent.

-color correcting HDV makes almost decent looking stills, but you get all kinds of distracting popping in compression block artifacting once the footage is playing. Compression blocks are areas that the codec decides should be perfectly flat color...even when they shouldn't be. These blocks tend to dance around distractingly.

-Again, realize the compression techniques used for HDV are EXACTLY what's used for broadcasting digital cable. So when you're watching commercials on Deep Cable at 3am and see all kinds of wierdness (look at a defocused flat colored wall over a focused speaker's shoulder), that's the kind of stuff you get with HDV.

-lots of motion forces the codec to sacrifice quality in each frame. Travelling car footage, especially out the side window? LOTS of square edged artifacts.

-When compared to the F900 footage, HDV looks cheap and consumer level. There is no way you're going to be able to intercut these two cameras without jarring dissimilarities. If you're going for a verite look, a handheld camera look, OK, then HDV could be used in the same project.

-comparing similar shots - daylight shots zoomed in on distant leaves - the differences were extreme. My eyeball guess is that the HDCAM is capturing 2-3 times the sharpness of HDV. Between the superior lense, electronics, CCDs, and compression technology, HDV doesn't even pretend to be in the same ballgame as HDCAM.

-consider HDV a nice very high res consumer DV with this camera. I'd rank the HDR-FX1 about 1/2 of the way between a good DV camera (Canon XL1S or XL2, Sony VX2100) and the Panasonic Varicam. It's much better resolution than DV, but the clarity and color fidelity of the Varicam blows HDV away. But it's nowhere near the F900 in quality by any stretch. (Which shouldn't surprise anyone, anyway)

-tree & leaves, zoomed in on from 50 feet away, were still very very sharp in the F900 footage. Everything HDV was soft focus, but rough edged due to compression. The F900 had a smoothness that the HDV footage didn't touch.

-don't consider HDV a replacement, a challenge, a match, or a camera B for a Varicam, HDX400 (new Panasonic 1080i DVCPRO HD camera) or Sony F900. Consider it a really, really sharp DV.

-if you want to shoot on it because it's more resolution and detail than DV....well, kinda. Overall yes, but some of the motion artifacts will be shocking to DV folks down at the pixel for pixel level. But overall it's a nice prosumer camera and that's it.

If you've been dreaming that you could get a Sony HDV camera (even the upcoming improved model with XLR adaptors) and go out and "shoot a movie" with it with available light, you're going to be dissapointed. Perhaps future HDV cameras will have better optics and dynamic range, but the format will always be hobbled by the compression technology.

Compare it to Open Water, shot on good PAL DV cameras, and then verrrrry carefully posted. That with more resolution, but more compression artifacts.

I'll be very curious to see Panasonic's new $4000ish DVCPRO HD camera at NAB and see how it compares.

-mike
Comments:
Big surprise! The F900 wins! Sony engineers should be eating their hats if $3000 HDV looked the same as $ 100.000 HDCAM. So I agree, but then I don't. The FX1 is a different tool. Just like 35mm film is a different tool. 35mm means a crew of at least 4 just to carry the stuff around. HDCAM means at least two or three to carry the tripod and the lenses. and don't go running around with a F900 on your shoulder for more than 5 minutes. I'll take my FX1 almost anywhere on my own. OK, the FX1 has artifacts when there is AND fast motion AND lots of detail but so does DV. Steady wide shots are amazingly detailed in HDV. When there's no fast motion there are almost no artifacts in detail. In wide-angle shots you have almost as much contrast as a DigiBeta camera. All zoom lenses loose a lot of contrast when zooming in, and the FX1's lens is a plastic lens, so it will loose even more. But I notice when shooting in HD you tend to take wider shots because you have so much more detail. There's less need to zoom in. I also like the cinematone gamma and in my 25fps PAL world even the fake 24P of the FX1. On LCD sreens you get a very filmstyle look and contrast with the FX1. Besides the price of the camera, you also have to consider the datarate of HDCAM. You end up with HD SDI to handle in post. The trouble with Sony is always the proprietary compression scheme that stays in the box. This is what I used to do in the SD world: Shoot DigiBeta and transfer to DV for editing. Then go back to DigiBeta for broadcast or straight to MPEG for DVD. In the mediu-budget HD world I would maybe shoot in HDCAM 24P and transfer to DVCPRO HD for editing. Saves 3/4 of disk space. Allows multiple stream playback with a RAID array. I doubt if anyone would see any difference. I notice the more you work with stuff like this, the more you see any shortcomings. You want better quality all the time. Uncompressed 4:4:4 at least!! And then screw it up so you get this nice raw unpolished streetlook. One thing is clear to me: For any film you want projected or diplayed on a plasma/lcd you don't want DV anymore, or any SD format. The rest is budget. If you can afford to rent a F900... why not, it's the best. But at this point I'd almost say the FX1 is better than SD Digibeta because of the detail and the film-look.
 
Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but HDV is still just a 25 Mb/sec format. All the talk about pixels doesn't mean much when considering there is no mare data and information in a minute of HDV than there is in a minute of mini dv. No more whatsoever. Everything is just cut corners and different types of sacrifices. But- I say again- I don't care if Sony came out with a HDV cam that shot 4k resolution- it's still just 25 Mb per second!- the same amount of data and information as mini dv. HDV isn't comparable to Digibeta, Beta SP, HDCAm, DVCPro100, or even DVCPro50 by a long shot. Have you ever worked with Digibeta or DVCPro 50 in post? It pushes and pulls great- unlike brittle HDV. And any low budget feature (like "Open Water') is going to spend months in the online- heavily coloring and processing each frame to get the most out of it. Sorry, you just can't afford to have footage that doesn't respond well in post. Indie movies are MADE in post.

Eveything in post is moving towards uncompresed. And Sony is moving towards higher compression in acqusition? HDV is so far in the wrong direction, it's not even funny. Just wait until Panasonic's prosumer DVCPro100 camera comes out this year. Goodbye HDV- you bastard foramt- and good riddance.
 
Hi I am from Estonia and tring to make some post production happening here
(Small country and most of the "films" are made on state budget - so producers eran money from state and nobody cares about the quality)
I think HDV is going to be a great hit in here after few yars because
1. Panasonic is about NTCS market only, I have found only one place in Europe to rent varycam (thats in Spain), I am quite certain that there should be more in UK or Germany (anybody knows let me know kaspar(at)duograaf.ee)
2. there were about 10 serious documentaries and 2 fature films produced last year 2 doc's were made on film (one with DI process in Finland) and one fature was made on film, other I think was cineAlta

Locally we have 1 digibeta camera, 1 digibeta deck, 2 J3 players - everything else is BETA/DV-CAM/DV or even worse (belive it or not but we have some U-MATIC decks still in use, anybody wanna come for history lesson ;) )

ok enugh rantig, about HDV (PAL numbers as I am in Europe and usually the films are made 25fps nowadays)

data rate comparison on DV / SD DVD mpeg2 (single pass)

DV = 3.4 MB/s
MPEG2 = 0.75 MB/s
ratio = 4.53

HD

HDCAM = 143 Mb/s = 17.9 MB/s
MPEG2 = 2.9 MB/s
ratio = 6.17

When you compress digibeta or evene film frames to mpeg2 on SD you will get a lot more room for color timing than DV, you will risk more artifacts as well - so you really wouldn't want to do that

So theorethcally I would expect much better image from upgoming HDV camras, and those might do for below shoestring budget films (50-100K or so budget range) but it is a consumer camera format just like DV/DV-CAM (DV-CAM by idea should be pro-sumer format but it is EXACTLY the same as DV but more tape is wasted when writing on tape hoping to get less tape failure)
Personally I think sony just saw an opertunity to sell consumer tech to professionals

I think the major problem with DVCAMPRO HD is the 3/4 luma sampeling, beacuse if you compare HDV luma channel only you get better image from HDV!?

At the moment I think the ONLY camera moving right direction is Kinetta, but it seems that it isn't moving along that great, but this would be the only thing that I would consider for filmmaking 10bit log uncompressed format, and it is near digibeta price range for camera, post would take much more, because you need at least technical color grading before using the material (one light in OLD terms)

just some RANTS on the matter
-Kaspar
 
Hi guys, I live in Brazil and have a little prodution center.
Here we have a very diferent situation than you in the United States, buying new equipment is very expensive and you have
think that well especially with the upcomming of a new format.
My final product is destined to open TV and DVD.
I work with Sony's DVCAM DSR 390 and edit in a matrox rtx 100. My client didn't complain but of course i wnat to go
more res than this format i've been working on. Now I have the oportunity to buy some new equipment and my question is:
HDV dellivers more resolution and a better looking result than this format I'm usig?
If so, why does it coast lass than the DSR 390 ?
Thanks for your attention, waiting for replies.
Eduardo S.P.
 
1- An HD Broadcast Lens cost about 17K euros, and of course there is a big quality difference instead the plastic HDV.
2- To be an advocate or doctor in Italy you must have a license, to be a producer or movie director you just need to say say "I am a..."
3- In the market not all can distinguish the difference between a serious Production House with HDCAM and a fully software licenseed HD Post and a hobby stile prosumer "one man-band".
4- There is no audiovisual critic people, that can choose between good an worst.
5- To have a well balanced market we need rules, and a les expensive serious HD shooting hardware like a HDCAM Camcorder+Deck at 30K euros, insted a 100Keuros HDCAM kit or A3K euros baby/joke cams.
6- We need a world federation to stright the power of Sony & Co.
 
1- An HD Broadcast Lens cost about 17K euros, and of course there is a big quality difference instead the plastic HDV.
2- To be an advocate or doctor in Italy you must have a license, to be a producer or movie director you just need to say say "I am a..."
3- In the market not all can distinguish the difference between a serious Production House with HDCAM and a fully software licenseed HD Post and a hobby stile prosumer "one man-band".
4- There is no audiovisual critic people, that can choose between good an worst.
5- To have a well balanced market we need rules, and a les expensive serious HD shooting hardware like a HDCAM Camcorder+Deck at 30K euros, insted a 100Keuros HDCAM kit or A3K euros baby/joke cams.
6- We need a world federation to stright the power of Sony & Co.
 
Hey Im looking to transfer from HDCAM into the computer at 720x480 - im editing in the new avid express pro on a PC.
Ive been told that these blackmagic decklink cards will work -but only with an SATA Raid on a few drives. (does anyone know if these actually work)?
I guess my question is - what kind of degridation in image quality will i be looking at if i chose to transfer the HDCAM tapes down to miniDV first? I know everyone says you loose everything
4:4:4 down to 4:1:1
but could you put an example online of a sample of HD converted down to DV (with a frame in HD to be able to compare the loss)?
thanks
--Matt--
 
nice work and I like your detail, finally someone who actually walks the walk as well. I need a good film quality/HD camera at an affordable price...Panansonics 1ooB with cine mode...JVC GY-HD100U, Canons new black beauty or Sony HD...love to have your opinion. noblesports@yahoo.com
 
Great read! Thanks. For someone new to the world of HD, this was certainly enlightening. Keep it up!

--Joe.
 
This has been a great discussion. I work for a production company in Washington, DC. We're working on a feature length verite-doc and have started some shooting using the Sony Z1U HDV camera. We offlined a scene by loading via firewire/Mojo input into Avid v5 in native HDV format 15:1. We then uprezed the finished sequence loading it the same way but 1:1 HDV. Then moved the files across a fileshare to a local Raid in an Adrenaline HD and transcoded to Dnx 145 and output to HDCAM. We did some color correction in the Adrenaline but nothing radical. The HDCAM master looked pretty good on HD monitors. There were all the usual problems you would expect: low light was really noisy (scenes were shot on 0db gain and then luminance raised in color correct), some artifacting around highlights, but generally pretty satisfying for verite-style stuff. But then we tried to downconvert for an SD DVD to show funders. VERY disappointing. We tried running the HDCAM master through a Quantel EQ system that has a real-time MPEG2 converter. We got weird motion artifacting, and a very soft image. Then we used the new HDSRW deck to do a letterbox 4:3 dub to digi-beta and routed straight to a real-time DVD recorder. This produced significantly better results, no motion weirdness, but still significantly softer image than I would have expected. Objectively, it looked worse than if I had shot on analog Beta SP and dubbed it to a VHS. I'm having serious doubts about shooting the remainder of the film in this format. As someone above said, indies are made in post, and if this format falls apart by the time it reaches the SD master that will be required by any broadcaster, I can't use it. I would love to make it work for the cost, and the unobtrusiveness of the camera, but my gut is telling me we hit the limits of the format. Thoughts?
 
John S - I guess the question is this: if you had originated on HDCAM and done a downconvert using he same methodologies, would it also have looked soft as well, or would it have been fine?

Sharpening the SD downconvert in post prior to compression?

-mike
 
"Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but HDV is still just a 25 Mb/sec format. All the talk about pixels doesn't mean much when considering there is no mare data and information in a minute of HDV than there is in a minute of mini dv. No more whatsoever."

Hi, I would not use this as an argument with regards to which holds mroe info. Look at the RED, using Redcode it compresses the 300mb/s (?) down to roughly 27.5mb/s at 4K 4:4:4. It depends on the encoding format used. Now the AVC-Intra codec was used on HDV cameras then you would get better comprssion and a better overall image at a lower data rate.

People need to get those numbers out there heads. Ohhh my camera has 880mb/s output, wow. Technology is moving towards lower data rates that are more managable with the same quality. PC's (& MAC's) are getting more powerful so we find we don't need massive processing power any more. Why struggle with massive data rates in post when you don't that quality until final output. Ok if you are CC then sure you need 10 or 12 4:2:2 at least, and for compositing and roto, but not as an editor.

Regards

Nathan
 
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