Atom Feed
RSS Feed
Buy Mike Recommended
edit systems & gear
from Silverado Systems
Buy Books, Software, & More
at HD for Indies Amazon Store
Buy New Movies from
HD for Indies Amazon Store
Or, you can also support
HD4NDs by contributing
to the tip jar...
Help Support HD for Indies
RSS Feed
Buy Mike Recommended
edit systems & gear
from Silverado Systems
Buy Books, Software, & More
at HD for Indies Amazon Store
Buy New Movies from
HD for Indies Amazon Store
Or, you can also support
HD4NDs by contributing
to the tip jar...
Help Support HD for Indies
Advertisements
Great HD Links
- HD For Indies Home Page
- HD For Indies FAQ
- HD 24
- Cinematography
- Bare Feats
- 24p Entertainment
- Light Illusion (was Digital Praxis)
- OneRiver Codec Resource
- CamcorderInfo.com
- LumiereHD
- HighDef.org Info
- Understanding RAID
- Video Systems (Reviews)
- DV Film (DV=>Film)
- SonyHDVInfo.com
- Plus 8 Digital (vendor)
- Digital Cinema Society
- Texas High Def (local F900 guy)
- Creative Cow (news & forums)
- Philadelphia FCP User Group
- Los Angeles FCP User Group
- Cinema Tech
- FresHDV
- DV Info's forums
- HVX User
- Pro App Tips
- Bluesky Media - Instruction
- RedUser.net
- fxguide
- little frog in high def
- VideoMaker Learning Section
- Stu Maschwitz's ProLost
Archives
- March 2004
- April 2004
- May 2004
- June 2004
- July 2004
- August 2004
- September 2004
- October 2004
- November 2004
- December 2004
- January 2005
- February 2005
- March 2005
- April 2005
- May 2005
- June 2005
- July 2005
- August 2005
- September 2005
- October 2005
- November 2005
- December 2005
- January 2006
- February 2006
- March 2006
- April 2006
- May 2006
- June 2006
- July 2006
- August 2006
- September 2006
- October 2006
- November 2006
- December 2006
- January 2007
- February 2007
- March 2007
- April 2007
- May 2007
- June 2007
- July 2007
- August 2007
- September 2007
- October 2007
- November 2007
- December 2007
- January 2008
- February 2008
- March 2008
- April 2008
- May 2008
- June 2008
- July 2008
- August 2008
- September 2008
- November 2008
- December 2008
- January 2009
- March 2009
High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.
YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com
All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.
Wednesday, March 02, 2005
Pictures & Notes Posted from Monday's Multi-Camera Shoot, & What's Next
I've posted pictures from the shoot the other day on my .Mac page. This was the video shoot we did with 5 cameras: Sony F900 (HDCAM 1080p/1080i format), Panasonic Varicam (DVCPRO HD 720p format), Sony HVR-Z1U (HDV 1080i50 format for conversion to 24p), Canon XL2 (16:9 24p DV format), and Panasonic DVX100A (16:9 24p DV format). The cameras were lined up side by side, so all cameras were rolling on the same performances at the same time so they could be sync'd up in post for split screen review.
After carefully typing in descriptions, names, etc. in iPhoto, it DOESN'T carry those text descriptions over to the web page. What a pain. So you get abbreviated descriptions, sorry. So a brief description of what you're seeing: the choice of props looks odd at first until you know why:
- an ugly shiny red leather chair chosen for it's saturated color and reflective surface
- an ugly brown matte chair for shadow detail
- the white backdrop has the black curtain pulled halfway into frame, so we could see how much highlight/shadow detail was held by the various cameras
- a bunch of colored plates & Fiestaware, chosen for still life purposes - color, detail, saturation, highlights, etc.
- a bunch of ugly blankets chosen for their annoying patterns, to see how DV vs HD held detail, and to see how well codecs handled the patterns/textures
- a couple of nice attractive actors who improvised hilariously, so we could see human interaction, motion, and skin tone
As I said the other day, we shot in studio with regular and low lighting, hand held and on sticks, stills and motion, panning and locked off, indoors and out, 24p and 60i and 60p and 50i, everything I could think of that would be realistic for a relatively low budget indie production wanting to use these cameras to "make a movie." Not a commercial, a movie, with the possibility of going out to film.
Pictures include how we set up the stage area, what we shot, what we shot with, and some shots of my ugly, ugly Test Mule for my HD uncompressed rig (it's going to be much, much tidier than that in production trim, don't worry).
The interesting part was that besides shooting HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, HDV, and two DV cameras, the F900 (HDCAM) and Varicam (DVCPRO HD) were also recorded uncompressed to disk.
The advantage of this is as follows:
HDCAM on F900 records 1440x1080 pixels, at 8 bits/channel, compressed down to 22.5 MB/sec (I think that number is right). The uncompressed rig records 1920x1080 pixels, at 10 bits/channel, with NO compression whatsoever, at about 130 MB/sec, to hotswap disks you can load/attach to your G5.
DVCPRO HD on Varicam records 960x720 pixels, at 8 bits/channel, compressed to about 5.4 MB/sec (for 24p). I recorded 1280x720 pixels, at 10 bits/channel, uncompressed at about 55 MB/sec to disk.
You get to log your shots as you shoot'em, so everything is very very organized. Even your media clips are logically named this way, and feeds straight into an FCP HD bin.
When we shot low light shots, or went back to our regular lighting setup, the prior footage was instantaneously findable BY NAME and available and viewable on a 23" monitor, so we were able to verify exposure levels and framing. Very very handy, didn't have to load in other tapes or roll back or any of that nonsense. And it was one click flippable between live and pre-recorded to check framing (or actually, we could have done side by side, but not full screen).
Most of yesterday and today were a day off, I've had Hard Things going on in my personal life, needed a break. Tomorrow I get back into all this.
I'm working on organizing all the footage, getting it all carefully logged, labelled, organized from what was recorded straight to disk, and next is to digitize all the footage from tape (oy, lots - we had about 25-30 shots per camera, 5 cameras). After that, I'll be messing with various uprez tools and 50i to 24p tools to get everything up to 1080p 10 bit uncompressed resolution.
Some of the software and processes I'll be messing with: DVFilmaker for de-interlacing, Film Effects 2.0 for the same, Magic Bullet 2.0 for the same, Cleaner's ability to de-interlace and scale and codec flip (I've seen some issues with gama shifts in YUV, have to nail down exactly what's going on), Compression Master (I just read a review that said it has trouble with HD footage, have to check that out), After Effects for de-interlace and scaling, and possibly the Algolith plug-ins if I can get them to donate a set as well (hint hint! Everyone else has....), but I haven't contacted them yet.
This will be a great test of reality performance rather than just lab/demo performance for all these products.
This will be a very good test of real world SATA array performance as well. I've done tons of testing and short work on SATA arrays, and started seeing some odd behavior that could potentially be a serious problem when working on long form or lots of data, beyond just the "inner tracks are slower" issues I've been writing about in the past.
I had hoped to get all this footage processed and compared and hold some kind of a screening during the SXSW Film Conference, but alas, that is not to be. This all came together too late to schedule it in, and I'd have to kill myself to prep all the footage in time anyway. I'm thinking of trying to find a venue to do at least one if not a series of seminars on the various things learnable from this: differences between cameras & formats, how the various de-interlacing and uprez software solutions work, how does tape compare to uncompressed to disk, etc. etc. etc.
All in time.
So take a look at the pictures, that's all that's ready now.
-mike
After carefully typing in descriptions, names, etc. in iPhoto, it DOESN'T carry those text descriptions over to the web page. What a pain. So you get abbreviated descriptions, sorry. So a brief description of what you're seeing: the choice of props looks odd at first until you know why:
- an ugly shiny red leather chair chosen for it's saturated color and reflective surface
- an ugly brown matte chair for shadow detail
- the white backdrop has the black curtain pulled halfway into frame, so we could see how much highlight/shadow detail was held by the various cameras
- a bunch of colored plates & Fiestaware, chosen for still life purposes - color, detail, saturation, highlights, etc.
- a bunch of ugly blankets chosen for their annoying patterns, to see how DV vs HD held detail, and to see how well codecs handled the patterns/textures
- a couple of nice attractive actors who improvised hilariously, so we could see human interaction, motion, and skin tone
As I said the other day, we shot in studio with regular and low lighting, hand held and on sticks, stills and motion, panning and locked off, indoors and out, 24p and 60i and 60p and 50i, everything I could think of that would be realistic for a relatively low budget indie production wanting to use these cameras to "make a movie." Not a commercial, a movie, with the possibility of going out to film.
Pictures include how we set up the stage area, what we shot, what we shot with, and some shots of my ugly, ugly Test Mule for my HD uncompressed rig (it's going to be much, much tidier than that in production trim, don't worry).
The interesting part was that besides shooting HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, HDV, and two DV cameras, the F900 (HDCAM) and Varicam (DVCPRO HD) were also recorded uncompressed to disk.
The advantage of this is as follows:
HDCAM on F900 records 1440x1080 pixels, at 8 bits/channel, compressed down to 22.5 MB/sec (I think that number is right). The uncompressed rig records 1920x1080 pixels, at 10 bits/channel, with NO compression whatsoever, at about 130 MB/sec, to hotswap disks you can load/attach to your G5.
DVCPRO HD on Varicam records 960x720 pixels, at 8 bits/channel, compressed to about 5.4 MB/sec (for 24p). I recorded 1280x720 pixels, at 10 bits/channel, uncompressed at about 55 MB/sec to disk.
You get to log your shots as you shoot'em, so everything is very very organized. Even your media clips are logically named this way, and feeds straight into an FCP HD bin.
When we shot low light shots, or went back to our regular lighting setup, the prior footage was instantaneously findable BY NAME and available and viewable on a 23" monitor, so we were able to verify exposure levels and framing. Very very handy, didn't have to load in other tapes or roll back or any of that nonsense. And it was one click flippable between live and pre-recorded to check framing (or actually, we could have done side by side, but not full screen).
Most of yesterday and today were a day off, I've had Hard Things going on in my personal life, needed a break. Tomorrow I get back into all this.
I'm working on organizing all the footage, getting it all carefully logged, labelled, organized from what was recorded straight to disk, and next is to digitize all the footage from tape (oy, lots - we had about 25-30 shots per camera, 5 cameras). After that, I'll be messing with various uprez tools and 50i to 24p tools to get everything up to 1080p 10 bit uncompressed resolution.
Some of the software and processes I'll be messing with: DVFilmaker for de-interlacing, Film Effects 2.0 for the same, Magic Bullet 2.0 for the same, Cleaner's ability to de-interlace and scale and codec flip (I've seen some issues with gama shifts in YUV, have to nail down exactly what's going on), Compression Master (I just read a review that said it has trouble with HD footage, have to check that out), After Effects for de-interlace and scaling, and possibly the Algolith plug-ins if I can get them to donate a set as well (hint hint! Everyone else has....), but I haven't contacted them yet.
This will be a great test of reality performance rather than just lab/demo performance for all these products.
This will be a very good test of real world SATA array performance as well. I've done tons of testing and short work on SATA arrays, and started seeing some odd behavior that could potentially be a serious problem when working on long form or lots of data, beyond just the "inner tracks are slower" issues I've been writing about in the past.
I had hoped to get all this footage processed and compared and hold some kind of a screening during the SXSW Film Conference, but alas, that is not to be. This all came together too late to schedule it in, and I'd have to kill myself to prep all the footage in time anyway. I'm thinking of trying to find a venue to do at least one if not a series of seminars on the various things learnable from this: differences between cameras & formats, how the various de-interlacing and uprez software solutions work, how does tape compare to uncompressed to disk, etc. etc. etc.
All in time.
So take a look at the pictures, that's all that's ready now.
-mike
Comments:
Im really curious how the new sony hvr-z1u is going to compare to the f900. I know the f900 is better but is it THAT much better?
I am so glad you are doing this test because all of these different cameras and formats really have me confused.
I am so glad you are doing this test because all of these different cameras and formats really have me confused.
There is a hughe difference between all these cameras. I have seen many tests and a lot of them are flawed because they shoot especially with the HDV cameras still sets without any movement inside. However I do a lot of editing of many different formats and as soon as there is a lot of movement on HDV there is a lot of breakup where you can really see how the codec just can't catch up with the motion.
Besides HDCAM SR is 440mbps(or 880mbps is 2x mode) and regular HDCAM can do 144mbps datarate. Compare that to a 25mbps rate of HDV. I find that having every frame compressed individually is very important. HDV can't do that because it was important to save datarate rather than picture quality.
I was looking at many different HDV cameras and was interested to buy one, I just can't see myself spending US$5k-10k for something that just doesn't look right. I have achieved better results using a DigiBeta camera and upconverting it to 1080i than what I have gotten with HDV.
I could probably live with the fast motion artifacts however I can't live with the Blackouts and Washouts. What I mean with this is that HDV cannont handle the gradient in highlights and darks very well. When you watch HDV closely you will get a light spot and rather than the gradient continuing to get lighter it just washes out (or blacks out on the dark side).
Besides HDCAM SR is 440mbps(or 880mbps is 2x mode) and regular HDCAM can do 144mbps datarate. Compare that to a 25mbps rate of HDV. I find that having every frame compressed individually is very important. HDV can't do that because it was important to save datarate rather than picture quality.
I was looking at many different HDV cameras and was interested to buy one, I just can't see myself spending US$5k-10k for something that just doesn't look right. I have achieved better results using a DigiBeta camera and upconverting it to 1080i than what I have gotten with HDV.
I could probably live with the fast motion artifacts however I can't live with the Blackouts and Washouts. What I mean with this is that HDV cannont handle the gradient in highlights and darks very well. When you watch HDV closely you will get a light spot and rather than the gradient continuing to get lighter it just washes out (or blacks out on the dark side).
bogus comparison - if you shot on Digibeta, that's 1/2" or 2/3" sensor, and a more than $20,000 camera.
HDCAM cameras are what, $50K to start with?
HDCAM cameras are what, $50K to start with?
Hello, im 19 years old and im soon going to film school. I need a camera that will have 3-ccd colors and also be able to replicate that film look with the 24p. I know very little about camcorders, so can anyone help me find the one right for me?
At wits' end here, hoping for help. Trying to up-convert digibeta to HDV while capturing to Final Cut via a Kona 3 card. Maddening bad luck with the card, no matter how I tweak the settings. The manual is useless, and can't seem to get any real help from AJA tech support. Not interested in doing realtime buffers for network TV, just want to do a simple up-convert! (It oughtn't be this difficult.) Gracias in advance...
Anonymous - it doesn't, it won't. Capture DVCPRO HD on upconvert capture MAYBE, then cross convert to HDV if you HAVE TO have it in that annoying format. Or capture uncompressed SD, Compressor to upconvert.
Post a Comment
Links to this post:

