HD For Indies

A couple things I'd like to see:

1) A lightweight camera with a true shoulder-mount form factor. Problems abound with the JVC HD100, but it feels like a dream to use. I would love for the RED to be small and relatively lightweight, but not in the handheld/handicam mold. This is probably obvious, but you never know.

2) FCP compatibility for the RED codecs. They would be foolish not to work with Apple to make sure this is so.

I'm guessing even at an "affordable" price, the camera will (by design) be far out of the reach of the true indie. I see overly optimistic postings already about a "sub 10K camera". That would be fantastic, but I'm not placing a whole lot of hope in this theory.

Can't wait to see how this all turns out. Thanks for keeping us in the loop, Mike.
 

I'd like to see an H.264 encoder chip onboard to help with the tremendous storage requirements and lengthy encoding times needed for the highest resolutions.
H.264 also seems to be the successor to MPEG2.
1080P/H.264/Blue-Ray is the most future proof combination of formats and encoding, recording we have right now. What to speak of 2540P/H.264.
 

Good optics, good low light performance (PD150 like). Low light performance is preferable to resolution. Us documentary makers often have little or no control over lighting.

Preferably recording onto detachable ruggedised hard drives. These drives would then detach from the camera slip into a cradle connecting to NLE for immediate importing.

I'd be pretty stoked with 50+ Mbps MPEG2 4:2:2 720p supporting all world wide frame rates. (I hesitate to us NTSC and PAL frame rates)

I am looking for a rugged small camera that will do for the HD world what the ubiquitous PD150 did for the SD world.
 

Full-frame 35mm sensor with mechnical shutter (if possible) and 35mm lense support.

Bayer compression (red codec?) for 4K masters @ 400mbps (one hour 2k, 1/2 hour 4K can be compressed to LTO 400/800 tape)

4:4:4:4 2k dual-stream hd-sdi outputs for monitoring, editing and color correction. Not listed in specs

Shoulder mounted ENG style case, low noise, battery powered, lightweight with integrated reflex viewfinder or alternative (glasses eye projection?)

Perhaps realtime proxies (h.264, mjpeg) stored to HDD or flash with DPX metadata and editing capabilities on a laptop.

Most important - availability, cost of ownership (less than 40K US without lens) and affordable rental pakages that include monitoring and mastering in their workflows.

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We could replace every news, film, documentary and television camera in the industry with a a open, uncompressed digital cinema format. In aquisition and post, Kona and BMD hardware with epci computers and RAID can replace all proprietary decks tape decks.

Keep in mind that filmakers don't trust Hard Drives. As I stated, LTO or other high capasity SCSI tape formats are affordable (around $5K), with tape costs inline with Sony SR ($60). Format agnostic digital cinema with 35mm compatility and raw digital masters is the only lasting solution.

Chris Carota
 

the highest possible lattitude - so skin tones don't glow when too hot.

I don't mind hard drives as long as their silent.

Obviously a great lense.

Definitely a sensor size that would give a 35mm camera type depth of field.

Price. That's going to be the big thing. Even in a rental situation - Somethine that would rent for 2000 per week would help indies. The D20 and Genesis are more like 10000 and up which gets into about the same cost of shooting in 35mm including stock and processing depending on your shooting ratio. It would be great if the camera were affordable enough for individuals to purchase - but I seriously doubt that is going to happen.
 

I pitch for evaluation quality monitoring... super high rez flip out monitor (maybe 2 to 4k rez); new, next gen technology like OLED or FED, etc... anything better than LCD; large enough for great viewing; able to view in sunlight; removeable/detachable unit to mount in multiple positions on cam rig or even steadicam applications (with thin, retractable interconnect cabling); have waveform/vector scope functionality like Aston Systems monitors; fully user config for what info to view onscreen; user definable levels of display zoom for focus assist; color or b/w functionality; and the list goes on... basically, the best on-cam/field monitoring option ever.
 

Focus:

A quality, pro optical viewfinder would rock. But don't leave off an LCD as it's useful for all sorts of things on set (but ditch the LCD viewfinder) .

Larger imaging block is nice but not everyone is nuts over having shallow 35mm DOF. For those of us fans of f64 & Gregg Toland, I would like to see some funky way to adjust the block for DOF. Since I view a camera as a tool, the ideal camera would have adjustable DOF characteristics. Don't ask me how :) and maybe it's asking too much. Although I still shoot 35mm SLR and shallow DOF has it's creative uses, I've also love the deep focus you get in Super 8 and 1/3" cams.

Shutter:

I could go either way. I wouldn't kill myself over mechanical vs. electronic as suitable good electronic shutter get you most of the way. Plus, noise. I don't miss noisy film shutters.

Glass:

Don't kill us on glass. Although I'm a fan of great glass, you can easily price the cam out of reach with brutal glass costs. Personally, I think a simple manual lens (drop OIS, servos, auto rack focus and other such stuff). I would rather have plenty of choices (primes and zooms) vs. feature-heavy stuff. I don't mind a little flare or barrel distortion if it means the difference between a $50K lens and $5k lens.

Other:

Gotta be portable. Must be portable. Did I mention portable? At worst, tethered to an average laptop or other simple, affordable portable device. At best, storage to P2-like tech. Short loads are fine. 4-5 minimum take.

Hackable. Okay if it voids warranty. Keep your IP yours but let us customize the cam as much as possible.

Size. Make it as small as you can. You can always make a cam bigger with shoulder mounts like DVRigPro etc. You can never make it smaller once it's manufactured. Small means getting shots cheaply that otherwise require removable walls, ceilings and doors, car rigs and other budget sucking stuff.

Audio recording. I have not heard this mentioned but make it modular with wireless options. (and a wireless video tap while you are at it). Use standard tech and for a few bucks of parts. 2 channels on cam, 4-8 channel codec. Jack for modular additional channels including wireless. Even better - wireless mixer so location sound mixer does not have to be tethered to cam or recording double-system. Or least a matching double-system that auto-conforms in post.

Rez is not everything. Don't give us more pixels at the expense of latitude/contrast, artifacts or noise. Latitude is what I miss most from shooting film. Contrast is what counts most in image studies of perceived picture quality. 4K or more is only wonderful if the image is worth seeing...

Okay - that's an easy list :)

I know it's a bunch, but it's so refreshing to have someone actually asking. I became a Panasonic user because starting with the DVX series, they have listened to indie folks and been rewarded with camera sales. However, RED appears to be a giant step forward in that.

I wish them the very best of luck and let us know how we can help make it happen.
 

good luck to the red team! we wish you all the best!

my wish list would be:

1. wide latitude same as Canon's prosumer DSLRs (20D range)
2. the main body needs to be a small & lightweight form (similar to the PD-150), solid like a tank, but f*ck!ng sexy. something you can and want to get cool angles with!
3. minimum 4 channels @ 16bit 48KHz audio or better
4. simple, no bells or whistles feature set - a simple digital film camera with simple controls (one wheel & one button).
a) shutter speed / angle
b) frame rate
c) ISO
d) color balance
e) gamma settings
f) resolution
g) compression
5. electronic view finder for menus, etc. (consolidate all controls in one window, but keep choices simple and everything arranged logically)
6. long battery life
7. 6K price range without lens (hey, if Canon give us the 5D for US $3,000...)
8. a collection of lenses that reflect financial limitations (low & high end) with - if possible - inexpensive prime lenses.
9. simple software to interface with the camera and allow users to add / create "sensor looks" where gamma, pedestal, etc. are set and can be added to the gamma settings menu item.
10. totally compatible with FCP right out of the box.

...and that about sums it up.

again, looking forward to what the red team can bring to market (and others like Kinetta!). good luck to all.

peace.
 

Thank you mike.... for this

I posted a comment in other "red"sections but I'll try to bundle this.

Many thoughts already have been said... but anyway.

Fist of all... how about a complete new idea for a setup?

Drives and power does not have to be "in" the camera... a module with the lens could be very lightwight this way... no matter if you use it handheld or on the shoulder. Think about a backpack with all extracktable items. This could be a way for affordable steadycams, too.

Pleeaase forget about a tape trive of any type... linear recording is supposed to be dead... for good – very expensive and unflexible. HDD ist fast, small, cheap, and relieable enough... If you want extra savety use a RAID.

Give the camera a TFT for instant review of the shot. Please give it enough resolution to tell if the focos was right. (720p at least) there are display capeable of that resolution at a relativ small size... we don't mind a large TFT.

Give it a good automatic with a good autofocus for shots that can't be made with more than one guy. Give it all manual options for shots that can be made with crew.

Final Cut support... no argument...

Pricepoint... yes, thats a serious point. Please, please, please make it affordable... prices up to 15K witch a decent lens would be a bomb.

Be fast... the others don't sleep.. a lot ;-)

Greating and good luck from germany
 

Well I'm just concerned about the equation between image size vs compression quality,and I just can't make up my mind:
is 4k highly compressed really better than 720p or 1080p uncompressed.
that is the question.

optical viewfinder even as an ad on option can save us money in terms on monitoring since you dont need the exoensive HD monitor to judge focus. and there are times when a monitor is not an option even if you can afford it(parchute,bobsleigh,back seat of a motorbike,wild life documentaries...and so on)
LOOKING forward here in france.
 

In addition to the comments above - Make it easy for a film oriented DP/operator to transition to this - Controls in familiar and well thought out placement on the camera.

Some kind of focus assist function is also nice to have to expedite getting shots set up.

A shot transition feature like the Z1 has. This is such a sweet deal - No need to pull focus. Set start and end points for exposure/zoom/focus and go.

A nice addition here would be the ability to have up to say 5 transition spots. Offer the ability to have them automatically timed or maual (push a button to step to each new transition). No puller needed.

I can dream :)
 

One more thing...

real timeshift would be great. Framerates at 120 FPS in lowere resolutions (720p) would be cool. Slomo for everyone... Even better if the framerates can be shifted during a shot. Timeshift is a pain im the a... in postproduction and you never really know what you get.
 

I'm disregarding costs issues completely, because what I'm hoping for here is something that aims HIGH.

so if stuff like 3 or 4k is assumed, the only real issues as far as I'm concerned are

can you use 35mm anamorphic lenses. So it looks like a movie.

And does it have a high enough colour contrast ratio. This means 32 bit float ideally... the major problem with all the digital formats so far, and this includes HDcam, is that colours clip in a really ugly way.

120fps would be nice too...
 

sure, 4K in float while recording.
and usd 15K, including lens.
some people here have to get a grip and try some real world stuff once in a while.
 

Aperture and DOF! Give me a chip that can interpolate like film and I will get a loan today!
 

A perspective on cost.

the Genesis and D20 seem to be hitting right at a price point that nearly negates the cost advantage of shooting on video verses film. Meaning... for a limiated shoot ratio - you don't save a LOT of money by shooting in the Genesis or D20 - especially if you're shooting over a few weeks.

So - I think a reasonable price range that might excite many people would be one that would be more like the cost of renting a nice 35mm package - with the advantage then being of no stock and processing.

Now, of course, myself and everyone would love a 10k USD ultra HD camera. I really don't see that happening in 2007.

There may be some merrit to a modular approach though. Something barebones for the people who must shoot a lot and must own their own camera (and who are not a rental house) - and then the deluxe versions which are primarily intended for rental houses and rentals. Just a thought.

Other than the lense, I'm not sure what features areat such a singular cost that the price would strip down so much.
 

35mm-sized target.
Nikon lens mount.
24p HD

Anything beyond that is overkill. HDV is fine. XLR input would be nice.

It can be single CCD. It can be a bunch of old SD chips stuck together. It doesn't even have to record audio. But this is what would move me and still be under 10k.
 

Not recording audio would be a huge mistake. It's not the most expensive part of the process... Maybe not having on board mic's but the advantage in workflow of having audio married to your video is huge. Enormous advantage.