HD For Indies

Hey all -

I recently had the chance to do an email interview with Jim Jannard, the man behind the RED camera. While I have met Jim and talked with his team extensively about the camera and am a strong supporter of his efforts, the questions I've asked are of a more skeptical nature, reflecting some of the concerns I've heard from readers and folks I've talked to about the camera. So this interview is a bit biased in that direction, coming from the perspective of someone questioning Why Do This, even though that is not my own personal viewpoint on this. I've rewritten and reordered some questions slightly to make the interview flow more logically, but all of Jim's responses are verbatim, unedited, as he wrote them, with the exception of bold type, which I added where I thought pertinent to draw attention. So without further ado, here's the Q&A between me and Jim:

Q: First off, what is the driving thought behind this camera that made you feel you needed to bring something entirely different to market?

A: I have been shooting for 30 years. 35mm, 2 1/4, 4x5 and stereo stills, 35mm cine film, 16mm cine film, and video cameras beginning with a Plumicon Betacam, then Digi- Betacam, and now an HDCAM and Varicam. Also just about every other video camera that has been released. I have been called many things regarding my camera addiction. I have always wanted to build a camera and this is the right time because there is a great big window of opportunity right now.

Q: OK, I'll bite - why is NOW such a good window of opportunity to do this?

A: It is a big opportunity right now because we have a sensor that will outperform the best in the industry and there is a big hole between the 1/3" HDV cameras and the professional market. We see this as the prime opportunity to really give a true alternative to film. And do it for a large group of shooters.

Q: You founded Oakley, which most folks only know of as "that expensive sunglasses company with the funky designs." The only electronic device Oakley makes I was aware of when we first spoke is the Thump MP3 player/sunglasses. It is a big, BIG leap to get into high end digital video (or arguably digital cinema) cameras. So why do it?

A: What most people don't know (some of our fanatical customers do) is that we are primarily an invention, technology and engineering company that happens to be best known for our sunglasses. For example, our XYZ optics invention (and patents that have held up in court against the biggest competitors) separate us technically from all other eyewear. XYZ corrects prism distortion that was, and still is for the other guys, a common defect in the market. We hold inside an 1/8th diopter when the industry is outside (sometimes way outside) a 1/4 diopter. Year after year we win the "Optics Shootouts" by a wide margin in published independent tests. The two done by Private Pilot quickly come to mind. We have the clearest optical material (Plutonite) in the industry which results in less haze and measurably better clarity. All Oakley lenses have the highest impact rating in the industry. You can shoot them all with a 12 gauge shotgun at 5 yards. They won't crack, break or come out of the frame. A little known fact is that the military re-wrote their specs when they saw the optical and impact comparison tests our our glasses vs. the "others". The technology that we have at our factory in Foothill Ranch includes 3D CAD modeling, liquid laser prototyping, electron beam gun vapor deposition machines for Iridium coatings, 5 axis mills, multi-stage injection molding machines, full testing equipment for every aspect of what we manufacture... the list goes on and on. We invent, design, engineer, prototype and build all our products from data. Nothing hand made. No one else in our industry does this. And we started the drive for technical prowess over 20 years ago. Several Asian biggies have come to our factory for insight on how to improve production techniques. Long winded answer is that we are technically capable. We don't see a camera or lenses as a "big leap". One last note, the RED camera is NOT being done at Oakley, but the program has the backing of Oakley resources. The lenses will be done by Oakley.

(In another email, Jim was kidding around and pointed out that the Thump sunglasses have around 125 individual parts - not exactly a simple pair of sunglasses! And all the electronics are built into the over-the-ear part of the glasses - impressively compact.)

Q: And coming from a company that is not high end electronics oriented, what can you say to allay concerns about your being a newcomer to this field? It is an incredibly complex undertaking. Why a high end camera? That is such a small market to serve.

A: My vision is to begin at the top. Re-write the books on a high-end camera. Then, I see us leveraging success (that's the plan, anyway) to release a broad range of cameras for many different applications. I have always said that we build our sunglasses so that if we don't sell one pair, I will be happy wearing it. The same philosophy is in play here.

(I then asked a long winded question that I'll skip about his intent, and why, and motivation, etc., and here's his response:)

I have said before that we have a big challenge ahead and we are excited about it. We recognize that we haven't accomplished anything until the camera ships to users.

We have all the pieces necessary to insure that we give ourselves the best chance of success, including a breakaway sensor and a great design team.

We understand the market's wishes for the final product capability AND pricing. For versatility and flexibility. We cannot come up with another camera that offers a slight advantage to current market offerings and expect to be successful. We need to "skip several generations of evolution". That's our plan.

We are building this camera because, as consumers ourselves, we can't find an option we like. So we are building this camera from the point of view that we are the buyers. And we think/hope we are not alone.

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(side note - Jim has also written a lengthier explanation of his driving motivation for doing this camera, and why he thinks the RED team can pull it off, over at DVXUser.com, I highly recommend reading that if you want to understand both the intent and motivation for this camera. He's also commented extensively in the forums on that site, as well as at DVInfo.net's forums, there's good info to be gleaned from both of those sources.)
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Excellent. A little background if you don't mind before we get into the camera -

Q: What is RED's relationship to Oakley?

A: I can't comment on the details other than to say that RED is a private company. Oakley is public. Oakley will benefit from the success of RED by selling some lenses. All lenses we make for the RED cameras going forward will be branded Oakley.

Q: What is your role now in Oakley, and your role in RED?

A: I'm the founder and Chairman of Oakley. The graphics department put "Mad Scientist" on my business cards starting 20 years ago. It stuck. I don't have a title at RED. No reason.

Q: What exactly ARE you bringing to market? So little info is on the website other than some general specs.

A: The website is in a remedial state right now. No reason to spend much time on it until we have more to say about our camera and the company. It is really just a "press release" site at this point. General specs are all we can share right now. We will have a lot more to talk about at NAB 2006.

Q: OK. Let's go over the specs one by one:

"4K Mysterium Sensor" - 4520x2540 - OK, what is this? Both literally - what's up with the Mysterium name? Who is it, who makes it?

A: I've taken a lot of ribbing for some of the names I have come up with for our materials and products over the years. Unobtainium was the 1st back in 1976. "Thermonuclear Protection" was another. The "Mysterium" sensor is just that. A mystery because we won't talk about the process or the nature of how we are getting 4k @ 60fps from this miracle sensor. Trust me, many companies have tried every trick in the book to find out.

Q: And why this massive resolution - only the very very highest end feature films are working with 4K scans (think Spiderman 2), and even then, all their FX are uprezzed from 2K. Why on earth acquire in a resolution that is even HIGHER than the highest end films are using? The datarates are ridiculously enormous - at 10 bits RGB, that's several hundreds of megabytes per second at the max frame rate of 60 fps.

A: 1st, the future will include 4k as a normal format. But for now, the advantages are the ability to use S35mm lenses for DOF and over-sampling of data. Many cameras sold now are up-rezzing to get to 1080P. Not us. You will have the luxury of down-rezzing to get anywhere you want to be. Light sensitivity is improved and dynamic range increased. If you don't need or want to shoot 4k, no problem. Shoot 2k, 1080P or 720P as you wish. And maintain DOF from you 35mm lenses without an adaptor such as the Mini-35. No adaptor means a lot of things, no light loss for one. This camera will record to the highest data rate devices or to our new RedFlash card-bricks. And everything in-between. When record/storage devices and CPU speeds increase, our camera will be ready and waiting.

(Mike comment - it says on the red.com website that the image sensor works out to 5.4 microns per pixel. The F900 is about 5 microns per pixel. So unlike some of the HDV and other lower end sensored cameras, you've got a goodly amount of light per pixel. This is VERY important to get good dynamic range with low noise. When I first heard of the 4520x2540 resolution, I ws concerned they'd have tons of resolution, but poor dynamic range and contrast capability due to tiny pixels. Not going to be the case.)


Q: There aren't even industry standard transports or buses for that kind of resolution as far as I know. How are you going to move that around?

See us at NAB.

Q: OK, back on track - I DO see the benefit of the 35mm image sensor - compatibility with existing gear, "proper" depth of field, a bigger sensor yields better dynamic range, etc. Am I missing anything in terms of benefits?

The flexibility of our camera will be shocking. We are attempting to remove as many items from the "I wish" list as possible.

Q: So again - why NOT just do a good 1080p/i or even 2K res on this large format sensor and be done and happy with it?

A: If you start with the premise of a 4k sensor for DOF and 35mm lenses, why not use as much capability as possible? We recognize that not many will use 4k (now). We also believe that the advancements in storage, clock speed and editing systems will quickly catch up to 4k. We are just on a collision course with where we believe the industry will land.

Q: The variable frame rates - 1 to 60 fps - that sounds GREAT - how are you going to implement that - like the Varicam does? What will be the best high speed mode you can do with this camera?

A: Again, see us at NAB. The options will surprise everyone.

Q: RED codec - on the site it discusses 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 19 to 100 Mbit data rates. That sounds suspiciously like MPEG-2, expect for the 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 stuff (readers - MPEG-2 is usually 4:2:0). I've talked to various folks on the board, at MWSF, etc., and have heard folks suggest everything from long GOP MPEG-2 to DPX files to JPEG2000 - what is the RED codec based on? Is it industry standard or proprietary? What will be able to use it? Will there be a QuickTime and/or AVI/WMV codec for it?

A: Sorry to avoid some of these questions. Somewhere on the site it says that specifications are subject to change. Truth is that the compression options are being finalized as we speak. We have some new tricks we are trying to add before the specs get officially announced at NAB.

Q: Lenses - OK, it says use industry standard PL mounts, or your own lenses. First off, I think it's GREAT that you're doing PL mounts for compatibility. I can understand making a camera body, but why get into lenses, especially if you can use PL mount stuff? Why make your own lenses when there are a few industry leaders out there that have been making great high end lenses for decades?

A: We see a hole in the market for lenses. It is true that Cooke, Zeiss and others make great lenses for 35mm film cameras. Our camera will accommodate them. But there needs to be a less expensive alternative. If we hope to attract customers other than the highest budget professional, our camera needs to be priced right and there needs to be lenses available that won't break the bank. We are trying to anticipate as many angles as possible. I'm going to be really depressed if we only sell 1000 cameras. So we need to provide complete solutions to include as many users as possible.

Q: Lenses: have you made any decisions about how many/what kinds of lenses you'll have that you can share now? Are you expecting to provide a full line of lenses, or just a couple of basic ones?

A: We have a lens roadmap. Three announced at NAB, then others added over time.

Q: While we're talking about lenses, that segues to the topic of imaging sensitivity - what's your target dynamic range? (On DVXUser.com, he'd said 66db or 12 bit before.)

A: We now think we can beat 66db and hold 12 bit.

Wow, that's great.

Q: Sound: What kind of onboard sound recording options are you guys thinking about?

A: Lots of options here...

Q: Is this camera going to shoot linear or logarithmic or both?

A: NAB

Q: Recording Options - I see you listing a bunch of stuff that I'll get into shortly, but basically, what is the NATIVE acquisition format? What is built in to the camera that you can record to? Tape is one of many choices - is there going to be a RED tape format, with tape decks etc.?

A: No tape from us. We will support as many record to options as possible. But we will also rely on third parties to fill in the blanks, including tape solutions. There will NOT be an onboard tape system on our camera. I think it is safe to say that we will put more emphasis on recording to RAM, Flash and hard drives.

Q: Post workflow - NLEs - Redcode - are you guys talking to NLE companies like Apple/Avid/Adobe/Sony? How will we ingest and edit this stuff? That's gonna be a HUGE issue, workflow - if it isn't easy to work with (and readers, think of HDV before it was natively supported), that is a huge dent in the usability of the camera. Are you expecting folks to capture over HD-SDI as is done with HDCAM/D-5/HDCAM SR, or native ingest over some kind of bus, like FireWire/USB 2.0/fibre channel/SATA?

A: All the combinations will be shown at NAB. (Mike comment - to clarify, I believe he means all the combinations they plan to support will be shown, not necessarily all that I just listed.)


Q: OK, on to the listed options:
RED Flash System - sounds like some kind of flash RAM - what's this? What is it going to be, what does it record, how much does it record, what's it cost, etc.?

A: I guess you could look at it like P2 on steroids. Details at NAB.

Q: external hard drives - like, ANY external hard drive? Proprietary solutions? What?

A: Details at NAB... sorry.

Q: Blu Ray - obviously, gonna have to be compressed due to max recording data rate. So what goes on here - XDCAM HD-like MPEG-2?

A: All 3rd party solutions are possible. We are building as open a system as possible. But we still have work to do with some third parties.

Q: "Tape" - OK, what formats? A dockable tape recorder like the SRW-1 from Sony? Or HD-SDI to go to standard decks?

Again, what is the default recorder - what's built in/on?

A: Most used (my guess) would be onboard RedFlash or the HD-SDI out to your choice. But there are so many other options that it is difficult to call these default. That really depends on the user's preference.

Q: Without tape, how do you expect folks to integrate into existing workflows? The specs talk about 60p - what about the basics, like 1080i59.94? How will "normal" (as in traditional) ENG and post workflows be supported?

A: Of course we will include standard formats (except DV). The surprise will be how many new options there are. This is an HD camera (UHD really in 4k). It is not set up for SD at all. You'll have to do that in post.

Q: With all these formats supported, is there going to be a RED codec recordable to all these different devices? It looks like a potentially very wide swath of user types. Who is this camera going to work best for, and who is it a stretch or a compromise for?

A: If we pull this off, the RED camera will work for many shooters, from the wedding videographer, Indie filmmaker, industrial shooter, and professional cinematographer. It is just as easily a 720P camera as it is a 2k or 4k pro camera. The Redcode will limit some of the applications... no surprise. Shooting RAW will be a choice for some. 4:4:4, 4:2:2, and Redcode will offer completely different capabilities for different situations. You choose what you need. The camera will accept the challenge.

Q: ENG doesn't need 4.5K. Indies can't afford 4.5k worth of data. Bigger film productions that could afford that kind of data are likely to stick with film, based on cost and proven workflows. What advantages do you bring? There's nothing to even SCREEN 4.5K with yet.

A: Again, choose what you need.

Q: So if recording media agnostic (somewhat), then what is the data format? Does it vary depending on resolution?

A: Data format depends... lots of options.

Q: If multiple resolutions supported, what are they? 4.5K, 1080p, 1080i, 720p have been mentioned so far.

A: 2540P, 4k, 2k, 1080P, 1080i (most likely), 720P and 1k. Specs can change at any time!

Q: If multi-codeced, which ones, at what data rates, are supported?

A: NAB

Q: If multiple different physical recording media are supported, which ones are they, and what are their limits? Obviously can't record 4520x2540 on Blu-Ray with decent quality with any known compression technology at present.

A: It is much easier to show than to talk about. A complete matrix will be shown at NAB.

Q: Creative Accessories - what's that all about? You mention versatile, light, and small - how so? How are you achieving this?

A: My whole thing is that I don't want to lug around a 30 pound camera. It isn't necessary. We think that we can put a base camera out with onboard RedFlash and battery that is pretty light. Then add accessories as you need them in a very innovate way. I will say that this won't be a plastic camera. It will look and feel more like a film camera than a traditional video camera.

Q: Is there a mailing list for when you do have updates?

A: We are trying to get everything about the camera done for NAB. If we get the camera right, marketing will be a lot easier. We'll worry about the marketing later.

Q: Your links page lists an interesting amalgam of large and small companies and sites (including HD For Indies) - what's that about?

A: I built the site and did what I wanted. I have no website building experience so it is, admittedly, remedial. Oh, well. I put links to companies I go to myself and have respect for. That's it. Pretty simple. I'll get a trained professional to build a good site when it is necessary. I'm not in a hurry. BTW, I have taken a lot of crap for the site. :-)

Q: With all these myriad options - recording frame size, frame rate, recording format/media, etc. - how are you going to keep the controls manageable? I'd think the menus would be a nightmare.

A: No question that a great UI is mandatory. We have our hands full.

Q: OK, and what is that 3D thingy on the front page of the website?

A: The metal "R" is a design styling target. "R" for RED. If you mean the RED button, it represents RUN/STOP.

Q: What's your rollout schedule? I've seen that you're planning to show a non-functional prototype at NAB in an un-named booth (do you have a booth yet?) - what else are you going to have at NAB - price point, specs, what?

A: Yes, we will not have to stand in the cold in Las Vegas. Our booth number is South Hall, booth SU1401. We will show a non-working prototype, but most importantly, we will release the prices and the specs. We will show workflow options and have some great people in the booth to answer questions.

Q: So if a non-functional proto at NAB, when functional protos, demos, and shipping units?

A: Our target is to have working cameras (and a few for sale) by the end of the year. We aren't promising an exact date.

We hope to demo cameras in the fall.

Q: When are you anticipating RED will ship the units to the public? I presume these will be sold and not leased like Panavision cameras.

A: We expect to sell the RED cameras to shooters. I'm quite sure that they will also get sold to rental houses for those that prefer that route.

Q: It sounds like there are plans for some pretty wide diversity possible with the acessories, lenses, and recording options. Can you specify a target range of user? Starting where on the totem pole at bottom end, and ending where at the top end? If that's a difficult question, then what cameras do you see this being competitive with at the lower and upper bounds of it's cost/quality effectiveness?

A: We plan to have a stripped down version of the RED Camera... then add everything you would need to it. It is a modular program. At the high end, we will show a 4k capable, fully accessorized model. And everything in between.

Q: What about workflow - if recording digitally, how are users to archive the footage? Especially in an ENG or other high shooting ratio environment?

A: I think there are a ton of options depending on format and end use. If you choose to shoot 720P, I'd expect one would not have to alter his archive program at all. If you shoot 4k, you'll need a pretty good budget.

Q: How big/heavy is the camera to be?

A: Small and light. Heavier than a Z1, lighter than a Varicam by a ton.

Q: And lastly, what about price?

A: NAB.

So we'll be looking forward to NAB for all kinds of answers. Thanks Jim! I appreciate you taking the time to answer question before your big NAB launch.

So, in summary, based on the preliminary answers given here:

The Camera:
-Weight: "Heavier than a Z1, lighter than a Varicam by a ton" - Z1U weighs less than 5 pounds, Varicam weighs about 10 pounds raw, about 15 pounds in shooting trim.
-small, lightweight and flexible are primary goals
-more stripped down versions in the future

Lenses:
-made and branded by Oakley, but PL mounts work too
-three to be announced at NAB, he mentions a roadmap, implying others to follow in the future

Recording: no onboard tape, memory and hard drive based solutions from RED, but HD-SDI was mentioned for connecting to existing HD tape formats. Sounds like it will be very IT centric, and I welcome that - there are huge advantages in post for by going an IT route (and some challenges too - helllllllllooooo, backups!).

Internal data format/codec: Still being finalized, wait for NAB

Pricing:
-wait for NAB
-but Jim has said on a forum somewhere that if the camera cost $200,000, Jim would be very upset, or words to that effect
-he also said somewhere that if they only sold 1000 cameras, he'd be upset (or words to that effect)
-read into that what you will

Workflow: LOTS of options, enough it'll require a matrix to explain them all, full details at NAB. But plans for folks like wedding videographers, ENG folks, indie and "full on" filmmakers have all been discussed/mentioned on the forums and here by Jim, so flexibility of workflow seems to be a priority for them, which is great. Exactly how to get footage in/out of NLEs, and whether it is native or HD-SDI, is one of the follow up questions I've submitted.

A few surprises:
-due sooner than I'd expected
-NO standard def (even SD) support it would appear - he points out DV not an option, and not set up for SD
-1080i is not guaranteed to be in
-NAB Booth is locked in (SU1401 in South Upper Hall)
-one thing I forgot to follow up on, that was a major omission, was RAW format processing. The plan, as I understand it, is to be able to capture the RAW sensor output through dual fibre channel links, which offers HUGE increases in image quality potentially (if you can process it in software). There are all kinds of detail losing choices made in a camera after the RAW image is acquired, and if you have the choice to capture the full sensor output and manipulate it in post, that is much closer to a digital film type workflow than digital video. Think of the difference, if you work with digital still cameras, between having the RAW source vs. the compressed JPEG to work with. For the casual user, no big deal, but for working pros, it offers significant advantages in image quality and manipulation flexibility.

OK, that's it for now. I have some follow up questions sitting in Jim's inbox, and I'll get those up as soon as he has time to get back to me - and I'd imagine he's got quite a lot on his plate, considering that they have already committed to a camera, 3 lenses, accessories and options, and who knows what else they'll announce.

Got a question of your own for Jim and/or about RED? Submit it in comments, I'll cull from there and forward on to Jim (or he might answer himself - he's the only billionaire I know who surfs the forums and posts comments himself).


-mike

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For further info on the RED camera:

Official RED site:

RED.com

HD For Indies Articles:

-Tuesday, December 06, 2005- New Digital Cinema Camera Coming: RED. 4K. 60p. RAW format. Wow.
-Wednesday, December 07 - More Thoughts on RED camera
-Friday, December 16, 2005 - HD For Indies Exclusive: The Scoop on the RED camera-YES it's for real
-Sunday, December 18th - - RED out in "late 2006" according to Jannard
-Sunday, Jan 8th - Graeme Nattress joins RED

Other Links:

-DVInfo.net's RED forums -with LOTS of comments/postings from Jim himself
-DVX User's forums on the RED camera - also includes a lot of stuff from Jim himself

Labels: Red