Atom Feed
RSS Feed
Buy Mike Recommended
edit systems & gear
from Silverado Systems
Buy Books, Software, & More
at HD for Indies Amazon Store
Buy New Movies from
HD for Indies Amazon Store
Or, you can also support
HD4NDs by contributing
to the tip jar...
Help Support HD for Indies
RSS Feed
Buy Mike Recommended
edit systems & gear
from Silverado Systems
Buy Books, Software, & More
at HD for Indies Amazon Store
Buy New Movies from
HD for Indies Amazon Store
Or, you can also support
HD4NDs by contributing
to the tip jar...
Help Support HD for Indies
Advertisements
Great HD Links
- HD For Indies Home Page
- HD For Indies FAQ
- HD 24
- Cinematography
- Bare Feats
- 24p Entertainment
- Light Illusion (was Digital Praxis)
- OneRiver Codec Resource
- CamcorderInfo.com
- LumiereHD
- HighDef.org Info
- Understanding RAID
- Video Systems (Reviews)
- DV Film (DV=>Film)
- SonyHDVInfo.com
- Plus 8 Digital (vendor)
- Digital Cinema Society
- Texas High Def (local F900 guy)
- Creative Cow (news & forums)
- Philadelphia FCP User Group
- Los Angeles FCP User Group
- Cinema Tech
- FresHDV
- DV Info's forums
- HVX User
- Pro App Tips
- Bluesky Media - Instruction
- RedUser.net
- fxguide
- little frog in high def
- VideoMaker Learning Section
- Stu Maschwitz's ProLost
Archives
- March 2004
- April 2004
- May 2004
- June 2004
- July 2004
- August 2004
- September 2004
- October 2004
- November 2004
- December 2004
- January 2005
- February 2005
- March 2005
- April 2005
- May 2005
- June 2005
- July 2005
- August 2005
- September 2005
- October 2005
- November 2005
- December 2005
- January 2006
- February 2006
- March 2006
- April 2006
- May 2006
- June 2006
- July 2006
- August 2006
- September 2006
- October 2006
- November 2006
- December 2006
- January 2007
- February 2007
- March 2007
- April 2007
- May 2007
- June 2007
- July 2007
- August 2007
- September 2007
- October 2007
- November 2007
- December 2007
- January 2008
- February 2008
- March 2008
- April 2008
- May 2008
- June 2008
- July 2008
- August 2008
- September 2008
- November 2008
- December 2008
- January 2009
- March 2009
- April 2009
- May 2009
- June 2009
- July 2009
- August 2009
- September 2009
- October 2009
- November 2009
- December 2009
- January 2010
- February 2010
High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.
YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com
All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.
Thursday, June 22, 2006
Apple's Shake now only $499, and what it means
Updated Thursday 7pm CST: AppleInsider | Apple's "Phenomenon" due out in 2008? According to AppleInsider, The latest release of Apple Computer's Shake compositing software may be the last of its breed, as the company reportedly plans to shift gears and focus on developing the next-generation of the application around a different codebase. ...which fits my thoughts.
UPDATED AGAIN EARLY WEDNESDAY: OK, so here's what I THINK is going on: development on Shake as we know it is DONE. The product isn't technically EOL'd (that's End Of Life, and that'd mean it'd be pulled off the market), but it is DEVELOPMENTALLY EOL'd - this is the LAST version of the appliation we know and call "Shake," there will NOT be another. The good news is they got a Universal Binary out the door, it'll work on the tower Macs due later this year, and they sliced the price to $500. The bad news is that it is going to be a while before the successor to Shake comes out to possibly compete with Nuke, Toxik, and the like. So if you can use Shake as is, GREAT. If not, you're waiting a couple of years probably before the next big compositing app comes out of Apple. Otherwise, why would Apple cut the price so much, then quit selling support contracts? They are pulling back into quiet mode to hammer down and crank out new stuff, not deal (much) with current customers. You can even license the source code for $50K.
(Tuesday afternoon update): one reader thinks Shake is EOL (end of life) - that this will be the last version, according to an internal Apple email:
no further software updates are planned as we begin work on the next generation of Shake compositing software.
OK, so is that EOL'd? "Next generation of compositing software" - sounds like another future version of Shake to me...or will it be a totally new app, merging Motion's OpenGL tricks and Shake's strengths? You can already use Motion particle effects in Shake
- see Comments link below for full details I have.
Apple - Shake
Apple is shipping Shake 4.1, now a Universal Binary, and it is only $499. No, that's not a typo - it's an 80% price reduction.
Mike's Comments: WOW. That should change the game somewhat. I'll bet support contracts will still be pricey, but that's a helluva deal to get folks in the door.
This DEFINITELY makes VFX more affordable, but you still need a skilled operator to drive it. I did compositing and motion graphics for a living for many years, and started using After Effects when it was still CoSA 1.0, well before Adobe bought it, but still never got into Shake as I found it too daunting to get into. (Now after using nodes in Final Touch HD I'd be much more comfortable with it).
So at first blush, this is amazing news for an incredibly powerful tool for indies to use. Hooray!
I could also see this sending the product down a not-too-great path, however - Alias slashed the price of Maya hoping it would drive sales. Maya is similar to Shake in that it is a high powered, complex piece of post production equipment.
Pricing isn't always perfectly elastic - dropping the price X fold doesn't mean X fold more sales. With products like these, there is a finite market possible, because not everyone can figure out and use this kind of software. Put another way - I felt daunted by Shake and never bothered to learn the bootlegs that I acquired in years past (v3 or so I think) because it was so complicated.
There will probably be an initial surge of sales as folks buy it thinking they can make the next King Kong but on a budget, but the vast majority will fail and/or give up - doing good work with this tool means really knowing what you're doing (or trying to do) in the first place, AND also being able to master the complex tool. Shake started out as a command line driven, script driven tool and has had a UI added onto it. Scripting languages don't make for an easy sell, nor a wide selling product except to the technical elites. One could argue that Flash sells a zillion copies, but let's face it - there's a helluva lot more demand for web based content than heavy duty compositing work.
Having slashed the price per unit, unless the volume of sales really rockets, it places financial strain on the R&D unit - less income into the unit of the company, less R&D for development, etc. Shake is NOT a novice friendly product, unlike Final Cut or Motion, and will require substantial work to become new user friendly. But that requires development effort.
Hopefully sales will increase to more than make up for the price drop, but I don't think so. This may be a point of fuel starvation for this plane, and it may start heading down.
Or not - I've heard rumors and speculation that Motion was practice for where they wanted to take Shake - more OpenGL acceleration and clever caching - so perhaps we'll see Shake and Motion merge at some point in a new app.
And I may be overly harsh in my assessment - I haven't doodled with Shake since v3.x or so, so I don't know how much easier it may have become to use.
But while this is initially exciting, the price is SO low it makes me wonder how long Shake can stick around in its current incarnation. Oddly, if they'd cut it to $1500 or $1000, I'd have thought it'd have longer legs.
Maybe I'm just pessimistic today.
But clearly this is a push to have cheap post software to help drive Mac hardware sales - the same thing Final Cut Studio has done for the Mac. With pricing this low, anyone considering Shake as a possible compositing application would certainly do well to consider Mac hardware now.
And maybe I shouldn't sound so pessimistic - it is a very powerful tool that is now very affordable - and that's good news. Maybe the new lower price point will help it vault over combustion and other software that has no hardware partner to subsidize the cost of R&D.
In any case, for folks needing to get work done in the next couple of years, here's a great tool for you to use.
UPDATE: here's the press release on Shake 4.1's release. Of note:
Apple will no longer sell the Apple Maintenance Program for Shake. Current Shake Apple Maintenance customers can contact shake-sales@apple.com for more information.
....
* Performance tests on a 17-inch MacBook Pro have shown that common tasks such as color correction, warping and the application of filters are processed up to 3.5 times faster on a MacBook Pro with 2.16 GHz Intel Core Duo than a 17-inch PowerBook G4 with 1.67 GHz Power PC.
Note "up to" and not "always" - let that pre-emptively cut off the complaints. Marketing copy, people, marketing copy.
-mike
UPDATED AGAIN EARLY WEDNESDAY: OK, so here's what I THINK is going on: development on Shake as we know it is DONE. The product isn't technically EOL'd (that's End Of Life, and that'd mean it'd be pulled off the market), but it is DEVELOPMENTALLY EOL'd - this is the LAST version of the appliation we know and call "Shake," there will NOT be another. The good news is they got a Universal Binary out the door, it'll work on the tower Macs due later this year, and they sliced the price to $500. The bad news is that it is going to be a while before the successor to Shake comes out to possibly compete with Nuke, Toxik, and the like. So if you can use Shake as is, GREAT. If not, you're waiting a couple of years probably before the next big compositing app comes out of Apple. Otherwise, why would Apple cut the price so much, then quit selling support contracts? They are pulling back into quiet mode to hammer down and crank out new stuff, not deal (much) with current customers. You can even license the source code for $50K.
(Tuesday afternoon update): one reader thinks Shake is EOL (end of life) - that this will be the last version, according to an internal Apple email:
no further software updates are planned as we begin work on the next generation of Shake compositing software.
OK, so is that EOL'd? "Next generation of compositing software" - sounds like another future version of Shake to me...or will it be a totally new app, merging Motion's OpenGL tricks and Shake's strengths? You can already use Motion particle effects in Shake
- see Comments link below for full details I have.
Apple - Shake
Apple is shipping Shake 4.1, now a Universal Binary, and it is only $499. No, that's not a typo - it's an 80% price reduction.
Mike's Comments: WOW. That should change the game somewhat. I'll bet support contracts will still be pricey, but that's a helluva deal to get folks in the door.
This DEFINITELY makes VFX more affordable, but you still need a skilled operator to drive it. I did compositing and motion graphics for a living for many years, and started using After Effects when it was still CoSA 1.0, well before Adobe bought it, but still never got into Shake as I found it too daunting to get into. (Now after using nodes in Final Touch HD I'd be much more comfortable with it).
So at first blush, this is amazing news for an incredibly powerful tool for indies to use. Hooray!
I could also see this sending the product down a not-too-great path, however - Alias slashed the price of Maya hoping it would drive sales. Maya is similar to Shake in that it is a high powered, complex piece of post production equipment.
Pricing isn't always perfectly elastic - dropping the price X fold doesn't mean X fold more sales. With products like these, there is a finite market possible, because not everyone can figure out and use this kind of software. Put another way - I felt daunted by Shake and never bothered to learn the bootlegs that I acquired in years past (v3 or so I think) because it was so complicated.
There will probably be an initial surge of sales as folks buy it thinking they can make the next King Kong but on a budget, but the vast majority will fail and/or give up - doing good work with this tool means really knowing what you're doing (or trying to do) in the first place, AND also being able to master the complex tool. Shake started out as a command line driven, script driven tool and has had a UI added onto it. Scripting languages don't make for an easy sell, nor a wide selling product except to the technical elites. One could argue that Flash sells a zillion copies, but let's face it - there's a helluva lot more demand for web based content than heavy duty compositing work.
Having slashed the price per unit, unless the volume of sales really rockets, it places financial strain on the R&D unit - less income into the unit of the company, less R&D for development, etc. Shake is NOT a novice friendly product, unlike Final Cut or Motion, and will require substantial work to become new user friendly. But that requires development effort.
Hopefully sales will increase to more than make up for the price drop, but I don't think so. This may be a point of fuel starvation for this plane, and it may start heading down.
Or not - I've heard rumors and speculation that Motion was practice for where they wanted to take Shake - more OpenGL acceleration and clever caching - so perhaps we'll see Shake and Motion merge at some point in a new app.
And I may be overly harsh in my assessment - I haven't doodled with Shake since v3.x or so, so I don't know how much easier it may have become to use.
But while this is initially exciting, the price is SO low it makes me wonder how long Shake can stick around in its current incarnation. Oddly, if they'd cut it to $1500 or $1000, I'd have thought it'd have longer legs.
Maybe I'm just pessimistic today.
But clearly this is a push to have cheap post software to help drive Mac hardware sales - the same thing Final Cut Studio has done for the Mac. With pricing this low, anyone considering Shake as a possible compositing application would certainly do well to consider Mac hardware now.
And maybe I shouldn't sound so pessimistic - it is a very powerful tool that is now very affordable - and that's good news. Maybe the new lower price point will help it vault over combustion and other software that has no hardware partner to subsidize the cost of R&D.
In any case, for folks needing to get work done in the next couple of years, here's a great tool for you to use.
UPDATE: here's the press release on Shake 4.1's release. Of note:
Apple will no longer sell the Apple Maintenance Program for Shake. Current Shake Apple Maintenance customers can contact shake-sales@apple.com for more information.
....
* Performance tests on a 17-inch MacBook Pro have shown that common tasks such as color correction, warping and the application of filters are processed up to 3.5 times faster on a MacBook Pro with 2.16 GHz Intel Core Duo than a 17-inch PowerBook G4 with 1.67 GHz Power PC.
Note "up to" and not "always" - let that pre-emptively cut off the complaints. Marketing copy, people, marketing copy.
-mike
Comments:
成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲
The support contracts (Apple Maintenance Program for Shake) have been terminated.
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/jun/20shake.html
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/jun/20shake.html
# posted by 
: Tue Jun 20, 09:34:00 AM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 09:34:00 AM CST
Apple will no longer be selling maintenance for Shake and no further
software updates are planned as we begin work on the next generation of
Shake compositing software. While we're excited about the innovations we can
bring in the future, we understand you have a business to run today that
requires Shake. To that end, we will provide all Maintenance customers with
the following three options:
A. Customers can continue with end-user e-mail support, as well as SDK
support for the duration of their Maintenance contract.
B. Customers may elect to cancel their Maintenance and receive a pro-rated
refund for the unused portion. Existing software licenses would continue to
function according to the Software License Agreement. Maintenance customers
that wish to cancel their contract must do so by July 23, 2006.
C. Additionally, Maintenance customers may choose to license the Shake 4.1
Source Code for $50,000. The Source Code license includes a 5,000 seat
volume license of Shake 4.1. This offer is designed to help facilities with
significant Shake investments maintain a reliable and controllable visual
effects pipeline. Maintenance customers that wish to license the Shake 4.1
Source Code must do so by July 23, 2006. Apple reserves the right to refuse
any maintenance customer source Code access.
Internal Apple e-mail. It looks like Shake is EOL. Sigh.
software updates are planned as we begin work on the next generation of
Shake compositing software. While we're excited about the innovations we can
bring in the future, we understand you have a business to run today that
requires Shake. To that end, we will provide all Maintenance customers with
the following three options:
A. Customers can continue with end-user e-mail support, as well as SDK
support for the duration of their Maintenance contract.
B. Customers may elect to cancel their Maintenance and receive a pro-rated
refund for the unused portion. Existing software licenses would continue to
function according to the Software License Agreement. Maintenance customers
that wish to cancel their contract must do so by July 23, 2006.
C. Additionally, Maintenance customers may choose to license the Shake 4.1
Source Code for $50,000. The Source Code license includes a 5,000 seat
volume license of Shake 4.1. This offer is designed to help facilities with
significant Shake investments maintain a reliable and controllable visual
effects pipeline. Maintenance customers that wish to license the Shake 4.1
Source Code must do so by July 23, 2006. Apple reserves the right to refuse
any maintenance customer source Code access.
Internal Apple e-mail. It looks like Shake is EOL. Sigh.
I can only see the positives, Shake for $499 and some new replacement coming along behind it.
Shake is hugely popular in the UK with the Soho folk. I hope whatever is coming along keeps us all happy!!
Apple Flame killer anyone???
Shake is hugely popular in the UK with the Soho folk. I hope whatever is coming along keeps us all happy!!
Apple Flame killer anyone???
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 10:43:00 AM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 10:43:00 AM CST
As a long time shake user I don't see this as a good thing. We have an xsan with 2 copies of shake and one of shake major limitations is that it tops out at 40 MB/s read. I've heard of up to 180 MB/s using nuke. Kind of makes the HD aspect of independent film making rather heinous when you can only work at 1/4 speed no matter what hardware you get.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 12:06:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 12:06:00 PM CST
But why isn't it a good thing?
Awesome compositor at very affordable price with the prospect of something superior coming along to replace it?
I have every faith that whatever is coming along will do the job quite nicely!!!
Awesome compositor at very affordable price with the prospect of something superior coming along to replace it?
I have every faith that whatever is coming along will do the job quite nicely!!!
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 12:21:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 12:21:00 PM CST
Uh Apple are hardly going to leave the market to someone else are they? If Shake is EOL then it means it's replacement will be BETTER, not sure how that is bad news and it would be hard for them to increase the price at a later date.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 12:22:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 12:22:00 PM CST
> I've heard rumors and speculation that
> Motion was practice for where they
> wanted to take Shake - more OpenGL
> acceleration and clever caching
Mike is right. If you want to look at where they will be moving Shake, take a look at its high-end competitors - Nuke, Inferno, toxik, Fusion, etc. They all have better OpenGL and cache systems.
Any compositing package that doesn't take advantage of the very powerful openGL accelerators and pixel shaders we have access to on these desktop platforms is dead in the water.
Also, note that if you are doing effects on a 3D accelerator, there is no real penalty for doing full 3D compositing, since layers are now textured rectangles anyway. So 3D is natural for the future. Also, HDR, as the graphics cards can support it.
Better cache would obviously be great too, meaning that you would have a more responsive environment and less waiting to render the same thing twice. This is a definite direction for the industry - even the latest versions of After Effects have improved this a lot.
The big question is, now that desktops have the compute power to compete with Inferno, are they going to try to make Shake into something that can work in a client-attended environment? At the moment, Shake is more something done by feature film compositors sweating in a dark room.
The EOL of the current Shake codebase kinda makes sense:
If you wanted to do 3D, OpenGL, HDR, and better cache system, you might as well write a whole new program. That's what discreet / Autodesk just did with toxik. Of course, they also used the rewrite opportunity to connect their system to a relational database for better pipeline, workflow and collaboration. It'd be great if Apple did that, but judging by the way that Final Cut is less workgroup-friendly than Avid, I am not holding my breath.
Of course, you now have the question - what does the indie filmmaker want?
1. 3D - definitely - think virtual set extensions, matched to a moving camera track.
2. OpenGL - yes - using a commodity 3D card to get faster rendering is GOOD
3. cache - yes - more responsive is GOOD
4. client friendliness - hmm, "true" indies might say that they are uninterested in doing commercials or music videos or things that require clients, but that is probably because they are living with their parents and have no clue of how the industry works... and how many indie directors survive thanks to commercial work.
Of course, I would love it if Apple did to Autodesk / discreet what it did to Avid with Final Cut Pro. To do that, they'd have to either:
1. Integrate Shake with Final Cut Pro to make a true competitor to discreet fire.
or
2. Build a next-gen Shake that competes with inferno / toxic.
Doing either of those things would revolutionize the industry (and help chop prices to indie levels). Apple could totally do it, because their computers are fast enough now. Even inferno is running on PCs now.
Of course, the side question is, why isn't Adobe doing this first? They are getting there with Premiere Pro and After Effects and if they keep the pace up on the OpenGL-ifization, Prem Pro 4.0 and AE 9.0 will rock. But still, if they aimed higher, they could rule the world. Ah well, AE 7 is fine for my music videos.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
> Motion was practice for where they
> wanted to take Shake - more OpenGL
> acceleration and clever caching
Mike is right. If you want to look at where they will be moving Shake, take a look at its high-end competitors - Nuke, Inferno, toxik, Fusion, etc. They all have better OpenGL and cache systems.
Any compositing package that doesn't take advantage of the very powerful openGL accelerators and pixel shaders we have access to on these desktop platforms is dead in the water.
Also, note that if you are doing effects on a 3D accelerator, there is no real penalty for doing full 3D compositing, since layers are now textured rectangles anyway. So 3D is natural for the future. Also, HDR, as the graphics cards can support it.
Better cache would obviously be great too, meaning that you would have a more responsive environment and less waiting to render the same thing twice. This is a definite direction for the industry - even the latest versions of After Effects have improved this a lot.
The big question is, now that desktops have the compute power to compete with Inferno, are they going to try to make Shake into something that can work in a client-attended environment? At the moment, Shake is more something done by feature film compositors sweating in a dark room.
The EOL of the current Shake codebase kinda makes sense:
If you wanted to do 3D, OpenGL, HDR, and better cache system, you might as well write a whole new program. That's what discreet / Autodesk just did with toxik. Of course, they also used the rewrite opportunity to connect their system to a relational database for better pipeline, workflow and collaboration. It'd be great if Apple did that, but judging by the way that Final Cut is less workgroup-friendly than Avid, I am not holding my breath.
Of course, you now have the question - what does the indie filmmaker want?
1. 3D - definitely - think virtual set extensions, matched to a moving camera track.
2. OpenGL - yes - using a commodity 3D card to get faster rendering is GOOD
3. cache - yes - more responsive is GOOD
4. client friendliness - hmm, "true" indies might say that they are uninterested in doing commercials or music videos or things that require clients, but that is probably because they are living with their parents and have no clue of how the industry works... and how many indie directors survive thanks to commercial work.
Of course, I would love it if Apple did to Autodesk / discreet what it did to Avid with Final Cut Pro. To do that, they'd have to either:
1. Integrate Shake with Final Cut Pro to make a true competitor to discreet fire.
or
2. Build a next-gen Shake that competes with inferno / toxic.
Doing either of those things would revolutionize the industry (and help chop prices to indie levels). Apple could totally do it, because their computers are fast enough now. Even inferno is running on PCs now.
Of course, the side question is, why isn't Adobe doing this first? They are getting there with Premiere Pro and After Effects and if they keep the pace up on the OpenGL-ifization, Prem Pro 4.0 and AE 9.0 will rock. But still, if they aimed higher, they could rule the world. Ah well, AE 7 is fine for my music videos.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Love the new price. Glad I waited to buy!!!
Apple is never this generous and I can only imagine this is in fact a pre-EOL status. Maybe a 4.5, but I'd bet money we never see a 5.0 version.
MJ
Apple is never this generous and I can only imagine this is in fact a pre-EOL status. Maybe a 4.5, but I'd bet money we never see a 5.0 version.
MJ
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 01:05:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 01:05:00 PM CST
"It'd be great if Apple did that, but judging by the way that Final Cut is less workgroup-friendly than Avid, I am not holding my breath.
Isn't our favorite NLE codebase is too full of NT4/Media100 Vincent/Macromedia cruft to go workgroup friendly, GPU accelerated, multi-treaded and fully buzzword-compliant?
Isn't our favorite NLE codebase is too full of NT4/Media100 Vincent/Macromedia cruft to go workgroup friendly, GPU accelerated, multi-treaded and fully buzzword-compliant?
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 01:51:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 01:51:00 PM CST
Buzzword-compliant and multi-treaded. Two great phrases for the week!
Well, this is the problem with FCP - at the moment, one project = one file. This is bad because two people can't easily write to a file at once.
It should be:
one project = one folder.
one bin = one file.
like Avid.
If you have a file per bin, it means that Editor A can be digitizing and logging to a footage bin, while editor B can be cutting the stuff from the footage bin in to a sequence in a sequence bin.
This is not hard for Apple to change. They are just being stubborn silly people.
Ah man! Here I go dissing FCP again.
But you are right, FCP might need a rewrite too if they want to combine it with Shake and make it into a fire / Avid DS / Quantel competitor.
Bruce Allen
Well, this is the problem with FCP - at the moment, one project = one file. This is bad because two people can't easily write to a file at once.
It should be:
one project = one folder.
one bin = one file.
like Avid.
If you have a file per bin, it means that Editor A can be digitizing and logging to a footage bin, while editor B can be cutting the stuff from the footage bin in to a sequence in a sequence bin.
This is not hard for Apple to change. They are just being stubborn silly people.
Ah man! Here I go dissing FCP again.
But you are right, FCP might need a rewrite too if they want to combine it with Shake and make it into a fire / Avid DS / Quantel competitor.
Bruce Allen
When I think about it, when Apple bundled everything into Final Cut Studio they were substantially dropping the price of what all those kinds of applications cost when purchased separately. This pulls Shake into that realm of pricing, though it's still not a bundled part of FCS. It might become one though, and a better replacement "pro" version might be offered separately.
That email is a bit hard to pin down as it could mean no more updates to the 4.x codebase now that it's Universal. Shake might still be called Shake in the future but maybe they're going to be doing a huge overdue rewrite to match the rest of the FCS apps.
My first reaction to the news was that I wanted to pick it up for the retiming with optical flow and some of the other features – FCP doesn't do speed stuff very well IMO.
I agree with Mike though, I've tried to get into Shake a few times when I could get access to it and it's not been fun to learn so far. I learn new apps all the time in depth so it's odd when I stumble on learning a new one. Shake is the only one that I haven't been able to pick up fast, but I haven't tried 4.x yet either. Time to try the trial I guess.
That email is a bit hard to pin down as it could mean no more updates to the 4.x codebase now that it's Universal. Shake might still be called Shake in the future but maybe they're going to be doing a huge overdue rewrite to match the rest of the FCS apps.
My first reaction to the news was that I wanted to pick it up for the retiming with optical flow and some of the other features – FCP doesn't do speed stuff very well IMO.
I agree with Mike though, I've tried to get into Shake a few times when I could get access to it and it's not been fun to learn so far. I learn new apps all the time in depth so it's odd when I stumble on learning a new one. Shake is the only one that I haven't been able to pick up fast, but I haven't tried 4.x yet either. Time to try the trial I guess.
Bruce - devil's advocate position - but then you're stuck with lugging a folder around, and gee, did that bin get moved out of the folder, and then....etc. etc. etc.
Having one project=one file has its advantages.
And in the end, the folder approach doesn't solve the multi-access issue, just breaks it down into more granular problems - two people still can't work the same bin without solving the same access rights and privs issues.
-mike
Having one project=one file has its advantages.
And in the end, the folder approach doesn't solve the multi-access issue, just breaks it down into more granular problems - two people still can't work the same bin without solving the same access rights and privs issues.
-mike
Shake 4 is no easier to learn than shake 2.5 or 3.0 or 3.5, etc... What is different is that there are more training DVDs and courses to learn the app.
It just got new features, but the same learning curve exists.
It just got new features, but the same learning curve exists.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 02:49:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 02:49:00 PM CST
I was speaking with one of the major brains behind Shake, and a question from the group came to him as to whether Shake would have real-time capabilites similar to Motion. This person smiled brightly and said that he wasn't allowed to comment on that.
That smile spoke volumes even if his words were elusive. I think it's safe to assume that Apple's direction with the next generation of Shake development is a Mac-based Flame killer. Just imagine that you could get a real-time compositing solution for one-fifth to one-tenth the cost of a Flame station.
It could be sweet. A new solution with the accuracy for feature film level effects and the speed for high turnover commercial (advertising) content. Of course, say good-bye to that $500 price tag though ;)
That smile spoke volumes even if his words were elusive. I think it's safe to assume that Apple's direction with the next generation of Shake development is a Mac-based Flame killer. Just imagine that you could get a real-time compositing solution for one-fifth to one-tenth the cost of a Flame station.
It could be sweet. A new solution with the accuracy for feature film level effects and the speed for high turnover commercial (advertising) content. Of course, say good-bye to that $500 price tag though ;)
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 02:50:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 02:50:00 PM CST
It should be:
one project = one folder.
one bin = one file.
like Avid.
Nope. That's some stone age tech. FCP should split into separate media management app and editing app. Media manager runs faceless as a database server and editors log in locally or over network. If several editors log into the same project media manager arbitrates access and keeps track of changes. Because it is a separate app there can be single Media Manager on the networks so it can figure out the same shot is used in different projects. Yeah, and it doesn't screw up when you consolidate a project with subclips and speed ramps. Hopefully.
one project = one folder.
one bin = one file.
like Avid.
Nope. That's some stone age tech. FCP should split into separate media management app and editing app. Media manager runs faceless as a database server and editors log in locally or over network. If several editors log into the same project media manager arbitrates access and keeps track of changes. Because it is a separate app there can be single Media Manager on the networks so it can figure out the same shot is used in different projects. Yeah, and it doesn't screw up when you consolidate a project with subclips and speed ramps. Hopefully.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 03:00:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 03:00:00 PM CST
Seeing as how Apple is offering to license Shake's source code, it truly does seem like Shake is EOL. At the very least, it appears that they are no longer going to be using the same codebase (as licensing the source code is being presented as the only way post houses, etc. could keep Shake growing for their own uses).
Some say that's great, because that means that the next version of Shake is soon to come. But my question would be: Is the "next version" going to called Shake? Or will it be a completely new tool? If that were the case, would current (and the many soon to be) Shake users be offered an upgrade path? Or will they be required to purchase the entirely new tool outright?
Some say that's great, because that means that the next version of Shake is soon to come. But my question would be: Is the "next version" going to called Shake? Or will it be a completely new tool? If that were the case, would current (and the many soon to be) Shake users be offered an upgrade path? Or will they be required to purchase the entirely new tool outright?
at that price i might be tempted to pick up a copy for my MacBook or MacMini Core duo at home.. anybody knows if it runs on that hardware?
System Requirements state:
- Mac OS X
- 1GHz or faster PowerPC G4, PowerPC G5 or Intel Core processor
- Mac OS X 10.4.6 or later
- QuickTime 7.0.4 or later
- 512MB (or more) of RAM
- 1GB hard disk space for disk cache
- AGP or PCI Express graphics card with at least 32MB of video memory and OpenGL hardware acceleration
- Display with 1280-by-1024-pixel resolution and 24-bit color
- Three-button mouse
- Optional: AJA Kona or Blackmagic DeckLink card required to preview composites on a broadcast video monitor
the Intel GMA 950 GPU should handle some psedo OpenGL, no?
System Requirements state:
- Mac OS X
- 1GHz or faster PowerPC G4, PowerPC G5 or Intel Core processor
- Mac OS X 10.4.6 or later
- QuickTime 7.0.4 or later
- 512MB (or more) of RAM
- 1GB hard disk space for disk cache
- AGP or PCI Express graphics card with at least 32MB of video memory and OpenGL hardware acceleration
- Display with 1280-by-1024-pixel resolution and 24-bit color
- Three-button mouse
- Optional: AJA Kona or Blackmagic DeckLink card required to preview composites on a broadcast video monitor
the Intel GMA 950 GPU should handle some psedo OpenGL, no?
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 03:56:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 03:56:00 PM CST
yes it runs quite well. I was using a mac book pro at NAB with a beta of 4.1. Shake isn't tied to the GPU at all, just the cpu.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 04:14:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 04:14:00 PM CST
well, the macbook *pro* has a OpenGL accelated GPU, i was wondering about the speed hit on the integrated graphics on the consumer line..
renders will be fast, no doubt, but i'm not sure about the interface.
renders will be fast, no doubt, but i'm not sure about the interface.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 04:30:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 04:30:00 PM CST
mischka and mike
I agree. Best is a database system. Which toxik is an example of. But to do that with FCP or Shake that would involve quite a hefty re-write of main code.
When I was doing my computer science major, I did multi-threaded network stuff. It is a nightmare to debug. It is much harder to reproduce a given error situation if it involves more than one computer.
Toxik gets around that by using oracle as the database. Which has been tested.
Avid gets around that by using the operating system's file system and a simplistic textbook lock-file implementation. Stone age, yes, but when things get confused (and they do), you can just delete the lock files. I would hate to fight a proprietary Apple media manager database if it got its mutexes and locking confused.
But I do agree, the way of the future is some kind of mega database media manager SAN thing that handles caches and guaranteed transfer rates, etc. Especially with facilities moving from tape-based to totally data-based. If Apple can do that, they will own, yes.
Bruce Allen
I agree. Best is a database system. Which toxik is an example of. But to do that with FCP or Shake that would involve quite a hefty re-write of main code.
When I was doing my computer science major, I did multi-threaded network stuff. It is a nightmare to debug. It is much harder to reproduce a given error situation if it involves more than one computer.
Toxik gets around that by using oracle as the database. Which has been tested.
Avid gets around that by using the operating system's file system and a simplistic textbook lock-file implementation. Stone age, yes, but when things get confused (and they do), you can just delete the lock files. I would hate to fight a proprietary Apple media manager database if it got its mutexes and locking confused.
But I do agree, the way of the future is some kind of mega database media manager SAN thing that handles caches and guaranteed transfer rates, etc. Especially with facilities moving from tape-based to totally data-based. If Apple can do that, they will own, yes.
Bruce Allen
As a guy who spent all of today since 6 am working on 2 composites in Shake, my first thought:
ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
My second thought:
Yum!
Apple's not dumb, they won't abandon this market. And Shake's awesome but it's way overdue for some big badass changes.
Oh, and their QMaster application? SUCKS ROCKS.
;-)
Pat
ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
My second thought:
Yum!
Apple's not dumb, they won't abandon this market. And Shake's awesome but it's way overdue for some big badass changes.
Oh, and their QMaster application? SUCKS ROCKS.
;-)
Pat
Mike, I totally agree - databases good, files bad. Ah man, this is my favorite computer topic. Sorry, this is my last post, I promise...
Here's my (not very original) thesis - The basic concept of a file is becoming irrelevant and increasingly horrible to work with (as you say, a zillion files is not an answer). At some point in time, _everything_ needs to be in a database. It's a pity Microsloth cut its database file system for Vista.
What would be best would be if the operating system itself runs a database of all "objects/files/resources" in the system in a very fine-grained way, arbitrating and allowing multiple users / programs to work on related sets of data.
That way, we would have a standard operating-sytem-wide database structure and also an ecosystem of tools would grow around it which would allow you to fix it if it went wrong. Then you would get a database editor / fixer program which you could use to correct your Microsoft Word objects as well as your Shake and Final Cut Pro objects and sequences when they get messed up. Alternately, you could design a journal system that would never get messed up - you could always restore back to a last known good set of transactions.
This would run on top of a storage system similar to Sun's ZFS (take a look at it, it is a very strong storage system with high performance, RAID, journal and guaranteed transactions). Actually Apple is supposed to be interested in ZFS, so maybe it will happen.
Anyway, whatever happens, let's hope Apple takes the high road - e.g. anyhing but Aperture's monolithic, difficult-to-back-up, difficult to collaboratively work on "database file".
Face it, Microsoft is never going to get a database file system for film people right. So, Apple is our best hope for a happy database-driven film world. Come on Apple, you know I want to buy one of your computers one day!
Mike, your blog is great. I will calm down now.
Cheers
Bruce
Here's my (not very original) thesis - The basic concept of a file is becoming irrelevant and increasingly horrible to work with (as you say, a zillion files is not an answer). At some point in time, _everything_ needs to be in a database. It's a pity Microsloth cut its database file system for Vista.
What would be best would be if the operating system itself runs a database of all "objects/files/resources" in the system in a very fine-grained way, arbitrating and allowing multiple users / programs to work on related sets of data.
That way, we would have a standard operating-sytem-wide database structure and also an ecosystem of tools would grow around it which would allow you to fix it if it went wrong. Then you would get a database editor / fixer program which you could use to correct your Microsoft Word objects as well as your Shake and Final Cut Pro objects and sequences when they get messed up. Alternately, you could design a journal system that would never get messed up - you could always restore back to a last known good set of transactions.
This would run on top of a storage system similar to Sun's ZFS (take a look at it, it is a very strong storage system with high performance, RAID, journal and guaranteed transactions). Actually Apple is supposed to be interested in ZFS, so maybe it will happen.
Anyway, whatever happens, let's hope Apple takes the high road - e.g. anyhing but Aperture's monolithic, difficult-to-back-up, difficult to collaboratively work on "database file".
Face it, Microsoft is never going to get a database file system for film people right. So, Apple is our best hope for a happy database-driven film world. Come on Apple, you know I want to buy one of your computers one day!
Mike, your blog is great. I will calm down now.
Cheers
Bruce
Bruce - detailed discussion always welcome, post as much as you want.
So if there IS a big database, how do you extract a "file" to send to someone then? If it all goes into the soup/string ball, how to extract the right element of soup/piece of string, when somebody wants a PDF, say?
Good for a single station, good for a workgroup server, but how to share granular bits of detail?
I like the post-Spotlight, no folders, just searches approach to filing - just use "database queries" to have a folder of all stuff related to Smith Job, for instance, but how to do that on a file level?
-mike
So if there IS a big database, how do you extract a "file" to send to someone then? If it all goes into the soup/string ball, how to extract the right element of soup/piece of string, when somebody wants a PDF, say?
Good for a single station, good for a workgroup server, but how to share granular bits of detail?
I like the post-Spotlight, no folders, just searches approach to filing - just use "database queries" to have a folder of all stuff related to Smith Job, for instance, but how to do that on a file level?
-mike
If this price drop happened months ago we may have went with Shake instead of AE7 as our compositor. Oh well.
It is puzzling. If they were simply going to EOL Shake, why go through the investment of making it universal? If a renamed/repackaged shake is coming out, would it be that cheap - they wouldn't hike the price back up for the similar repackaged version.
Here's a theory: Could they be bringing the Shake tools into FCS in some way? Maybe the Motion functionality will be brought into the final cut app, and Shake will become FCS compositor. That would make the FCS package a powerful bundle (motion is convenient, not a pro tool). It would also explain the price drop - they couldn't charge more for an app that was about to be part of a package that cost less that it does.
It is puzzling. If they were simply going to EOL Shake, why go through the investment of making it universal? If a renamed/repackaged shake is coming out, would it be that cheap - they wouldn't hike the price back up for the similar repackaged version.
Here's a theory: Could they be bringing the Shake tools into FCS in some way? Maybe the Motion functionality will be brought into the final cut app, and Shake will become FCS compositor. That would make the FCS package a powerful bundle (motion is convenient, not a pro tool). It would also explain the price drop - they couldn't charge more for an app that was about to be part of a package that cost less that it does.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 06:16:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 06:16:00 PM CST
Doesn't Apple pretty much already contain the tools to set this up?
Core Data is a liteweight database at the heart of OS X now. If that doesn't work then Apple can certainly utilize the code being worked on by subsidiary Filemaker.
Next shouldn't integrate XSAN into the Final Cut Suite? This would allow for file-locking concurrent access and the ability to manage your storage data on or across RAID Array.
Next look at this rumor
http://www.macosxrumors.com/articles/2006/06/08/exclusive-leopard-to-bring-collaborative-documents/
If this is true then Apple may be adding the ability to collaborate with any other Mac on any file that would support this potential API. Soooo
Final Cut Studio Extreme with XSAN and a deeply embedded database with hooks into the OS X Core Data database all wrapped up in systemwide collaboration toolsets.
It'd take a few years to smooth out but man you get a few kick arse digital video mavens working in realtime and this suite would be worth it's weight in saffron.
Core Data is a liteweight database at the heart of OS X now. If that doesn't work then Apple can certainly utilize the code being worked on by subsidiary Filemaker.
Next shouldn't integrate XSAN into the Final Cut Suite? This would allow for file-locking concurrent access and the ability to manage your storage data on or across RAID Array.
Next look at this rumor
http://www.macosxrumors.com/articles/2006/06/08/exclusive-leopard-to-bring-collaborative-documents/
If this is true then Apple may be adding the ability to collaborate with any other Mac on any file that would support this potential API. Soooo
Final Cut Studio Extreme with XSAN and a deeply embedded database with hooks into the OS X Core Data database all wrapped up in systemwide collaboration toolsets.
It'd take a few years to smooth out but man you get a few kick arse digital video mavens working in realtime and this suite would be worth it's weight in saffron.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 06:16:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 06:16:00 PM CST
In regards to the qmaster completely sucks idea I have to completely agree. It is horribly unusable for shake. First off it renders to iff files first then takes all of those and recombines them into a quicktime file so you're hit with a double read write. Secondly if you have a n apple motion file in the script you're f*cked becasue no matter what qmaster assignes one frame to a processor, so if you're on a quad you get 4 frames, which is a problem because you only have 1 GPU. Compared to any other distributed rendering solution its unbelievably bad. Manually distributed batch scripts are better.
Jeff Brue
3D Technical Director
Jeff Brue
3D Technical Director
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 06:22:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 06:22:00 PM CST
Neil - my latest thoughts are that Shake isn't technically EOL'd (where you can't buy it anymore), but it is DEVELOPMENTALLY EOL'd - they clearly, provably, aren't going to make any more versions of Shake. Porting to Universal makes sense in that context - this is the last version, but it'll run on all the hardware out (and to be out later this year) so you can buy it for cheap and use it. Great and wonderful.
And they may bundle it into FCS down the road, and that'd be great too.
But I think what they intend is to have this be a "here you go use this, don't bug us while we're busy" version that'll satisfy the market in the meantime while they put their heads down and create some new product that'll be substantially different from what's out there now. They clearly need to get better realtime performance with HDR, using OpenGL acceleration and better caching to be competitive with Toxik, Nuke, etc.
-mike
And they may bundle it into FCS down the road, and that'd be great too.
But I think what they intend is to have this be a "here you go use this, don't bug us while we're busy" version that'll satisfy the market in the meantime while they put their heads down and create some new product that'll be substantially different from what's out there now. They clearly need to get better realtime performance with HDR, using OpenGL acceleration and better caching to be competitive with Toxik, Nuke, etc.
-mike
That makes sense, I'm just saying that Apple is moving in the direction of putting together the ultimate software bundle, rather than a collection of individual apps. As with the intel switch, Apple is thinking boldly about the bigger picture. Having a ULITMATE video package for $1200 is of so much more value to Apple in terms of Apple's hold on the film/video industry than having a separate pro compositor. FCS is lacking in terms of compositing, and improving Motion will still lead to an inferior product compared to the more etablished AE, Flame, etc. Starting from scratch won't produce the an app that has the versitility that Shake does, not the first time around. Shake is what they should build from (maybe make it more mac like) and package it with FCS. This to me is an explaination of the price cut. Anyway, I ramble.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 07:04:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 07:04:00 PM CST
Okay, not my last post!
Jeff - you are right, this sucks but it is an inherent weakness of Quicktime / the current file system (see the database chat). You cannot have two programs writing to a quicktime at the same time. The system is too granular - e.g one clip, one grain. With one file per frame, you then have one frame, one grain. That's why we need a database-driven, fine-grained file / resource system if we are ever to get away from image sequences.
Neil H - you are right about how cool it would be to bring Shake / Motion functionality into final cut. That is what discreet fire, Quantel, Avid DS currently does (editing and high-end compositing) and we are hoping Apple will decide to do too.
Anonymous - agreed, a good database or collaborative system is needed. File level locking doesn't solve the problem. AFAIK file level locking just brings a SAN up to the existing granularity of ethernet shares.
Again, collaborative systems are harder said than done. For example:
Editor A takes ownership of a sequence. Then he wants to cut a clip into the sequence after first changing the clip's volume. But Editor B has loaded up the clip because he wants to do the same thing - change the clip's volume and cut it into the sequence. Except that he can't because Editor A owns the sequence. One of them has to step down from this and release write resources (in this case it would be Editor B maybe should release his ability to change the clip's volume) or else they will remain stuck forever.
None of these problems are insurmountable. But if you add network latency and hardware failures, it starts to get tricky. So I am not convinced at all that Apple will manage to get it completely right the first time for Leopard.
Mike - yes, I agree that Shake is a developmentally EOL'ed and that they have made it cheap to satisfy the market. Maybe it is like what happened in the 3D world with Softimage | 3D when they were developing Softimage XSI. They bundled Softimage | 3D with XSI 1.0 to stop people complaining that XSI lacked certain features (that Softimage 3D had) in the beginning. So maybe Apple will give us the Sequel to Shake bundled with the old Shake 4.1 in order to paper over any gaps. If they will price the Sequel to Shake at the same price as Shake used to be priced, they had better take the current pricing of Shake down now in order to clarify to Shake owners why they won't qualify for an upgrade deal...
Bruce
Jeff - you are right, this sucks but it is an inherent weakness of Quicktime / the current file system (see the database chat). You cannot have two programs writing to a quicktime at the same time. The system is too granular - e.g one clip, one grain. With one file per frame, you then have one frame, one grain. That's why we need a database-driven, fine-grained file / resource system if we are ever to get away from image sequences.
Neil H - you are right about how cool it would be to bring Shake / Motion functionality into final cut. That is what discreet fire, Quantel, Avid DS currently does (editing and high-end compositing) and we are hoping Apple will decide to do too.
Anonymous - agreed, a good database or collaborative system is needed. File level locking doesn't solve the problem. AFAIK file level locking just brings a SAN up to the existing granularity of ethernet shares.
Again, collaborative systems are harder said than done. For example:
Editor A takes ownership of a sequence. Then he wants to cut a clip into the sequence after first changing the clip's volume. But Editor B has loaded up the clip because he wants to do the same thing - change the clip's volume and cut it into the sequence. Except that he can't because Editor A owns the sequence. One of them has to step down from this and release write resources (in this case it would be Editor B maybe should release his ability to change the clip's volume) or else they will remain stuck forever.
None of these problems are insurmountable. But if you add network latency and hardware failures, it starts to get tricky. So I am not convinced at all that Apple will manage to get it completely right the first time for Leopard.
Mike - yes, I agree that Shake is a developmentally EOL'ed and that they have made it cheap to satisfy the market. Maybe it is like what happened in the 3D world with Softimage | 3D when they were developing Softimage XSI. They bundled Softimage | 3D with XSI 1.0 to stop people complaining that XSI lacked certain features (that Softimage 3D had) in the beginning. So maybe Apple will give us the Sequel to Shake bundled with the old Shake 4.1 in order to paper over any gaps. If they will price the Sequel to Shake at the same price as Shake used to be priced, they had better take the current pricing of Shake down now in order to clarify to Shake owners why they won't qualify for an upgrade deal...
Bruce
What I want (in a video asset mgmt. system): Aperture for video. Think of it: full-screen, real-time searching and browsing. Advanced tagging & metadata. FCP integration - perhaps being able to view clips and relationships between projects (clip A used in project 1 & 2, etc.).
The building blocks are there, and the UI designers are in-house. Come on, The Steve - it would rock!
The building blocks are there, and the UI designers are in-house. Come on, The Steve - it would rock!
Hi Mike!
What Jeff said above. Plus, in my experience, the darn thing often is more trouble than it's worth. QMaster that is. Then again, Apple swears they've upgraded it.
I do all my compositing in Shake but I use AE for a ton of visual effects type stuff, too. And Motion now and then... all about the right tool for the job.
Today was pulling keys with HDV footage in an environment that was not ideal. They had a very small green and bluescreen stage, the actors were only about 6 feet from the screens which were not evenly lit. Plus we did some Star Trek transporter fun stuff with 'em. Shake was the right tool to use in this case.
What Jeff said above. Plus, in my experience, the darn thing often is more trouble than it's worth. QMaster that is. Then again, Apple swears they've upgraded it.
I do all my compositing in Shake but I use AE for a ton of visual effects type stuff, too. And Motion now and then... all about the right tool for the job.
Today was pulling keys with HDV footage in an environment that was not ideal. They had a very small green and bluescreen stage, the actors were only about 6 feet from the screens which were not evenly lit. Plus we did some Star Trek transporter fun stuff with 'em. Shake was the right tool to use in this case.
The thing is I never really want to get away from image sequences. From the 3d/ high end compositing process where you're rendering sometimes at 20 minutes a frame with frame size that are 8 MB a frame (float bit depth). The thing thats great about shake is that it is wonderfully multithreaded ie it will use both processors on a single image becasue its a scanline based renderer. The thing thats horrible about qmaster is that it still throws 1 frame per 1 proc and limits that 1 frame to that one proc. Thats why we use muster here.
Anyway, the thing that aggravates me about this potential transition is the idea of getting away from doing it "right" to doing it fast. Final cut being a clear example of this. "ooo lets adjust all our imported quicktimes gamma to make it look pretty and at the sametime throw away any useful metadata" instead of actually taking the time to teach people about LUT's and color perception.
Anyway, the thing that aggravates me about this potential transition is the idea of getting away from doing it "right" to doing it fast. Final cut being a clear example of this. "ooo lets adjust all our imported quicktimes gamma to make it look pretty and at the sametime throw away any useful metadata" instead of actually taking the time to teach people about LUT's and color perception.
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 09:47:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 09:47:00 PM CST
I spoke to a friend of mine at Apple today after hearing this news. He is the head of another dev team in a similiar space but I won't name it or he might get hollered at. He assured me that none of the Shake team is going anywhere and that they are working on what is coming next and it will "blow me away". So hang in there folks, it should be fun!
# posted by : Tue Jun 20, 10:10:00 PM CST
: Tue Jun 20, 10:10:00 PM CST
EOL. Perhaps. But look what small poor moviemakers get now for this price for their mini budget but big hearted projects.
Even apart from compositing, it does ´simple´ postproduction so good for people who work with prosumer camera´s:
-It does deinterlacing far mor better than anything else I´ve seen. It blows stuff like Magic Bullet away (if you set it up right).
-It has beautiful subpixel scaling and retiming.
-It has very nice lens correction and camera jitter correction.
All superior to After Effects in my opinion.
It´s not as easy as After Effects but it just takes a couple of days to get the hang of. Read the manual. Nodes are good for you.
I think it´s great that people like me can afford this now. Sorry if I´m not in the XSAN multi-editor badass game, but I think it´s wonderful they offer this. It´s for us to take it or leave it. Better things will always come.
Even apart from compositing, it does ´simple´ postproduction so good for people who work with prosumer camera´s:
-It does deinterlacing far mor better than anything else I´ve seen. It blows stuff like Magic Bullet away (if you set it up right).
-It has beautiful subpixel scaling and retiming.
-It has very nice lens correction and camera jitter correction.
All superior to After Effects in my opinion.
It´s not as easy as After Effects but it just takes a couple of days to get the hang of. Read the manual. Nodes are good for you.
I think it´s great that people like me can afford this now. Sorry if I´m not in the XSAN multi-editor badass game, but I think it´s wonderful they offer this. It´s for us to take it or leave it. Better things will always come.
# posted by : Wed Jun 21, 12:55:00 AM CST
: Wed Jun 21, 12:55:00 AM CST
Kurt, you're right. Shake can make a massive difference in our work. And man, those features you mentioned KILL AE's offerings in those areas.
Except I'd add (to Shake newbies) take Mike's caveats about Shake real seriously if you're a "typical" indie film guy (clearly most of us here are NOT typical :-))- it is a real bear to figure out this app. And I think that's OK, given that it's so powerful.
I think you're smarter than me, if you got the hang of it in a couple of days- I've been working in it for 2 years now and I'm still finding new stuff. Well, I take that back. I was doing Primatte and wire removal in a few days I guess. Maybe more like a week before I really "got" that. And even today I'm learning. For instance, I have my own keyer I built now and I'm learning to combine multiple keyers to do really wispy hair etc.
I'd just hate some guy with a iBook thinking to himself he can make something as involved as King King without years of experience. I'm seeing a lot of posts on the Cow and Mac Rumor sites saying that, basically.
Except I'd add (to Shake newbies) take Mike's caveats about Shake real seriously if you're a "typical" indie film guy (clearly most of us here are NOT typical :-))- it is a real bear to figure out this app. And I think that's OK, given that it's so powerful.
I think you're smarter than me, if you got the hang of it in a couple of days- I've been working in it for 2 years now and I'm still finding new stuff. Well, I take that back. I was doing Primatte and wire removal in a few days I guess. Maybe more like a week before I really "got" that. And even today I'm learning. For instance, I have my own keyer I built now and I'm learning to combine multiple keyers to do really wispy hair etc.
I'd just hate some guy with a iBook thinking to himself he can make something as involved as King King without years of experience. I'm seeing a lot of posts on the Cow and Mac Rumor sites saying that, basically.
Allan W - As far as I know, Aperture has a terrible database system. It does not support multi-user collaboration. It is also difficult to back up because it stores everything (media and metadata) in a big one folder which pretends to be a file. It is also not documented properly (so if it gets messed up, you have to use Aperture to fix it).
Comparing Aperture's database to a real database system (such as the Oracle one discreet uses with toxik) is a joke. I am very worried that Apple will do something Aperture-like to FCP.
Quote from Apple support forums:
"I am confused about why updating Metadata takes so long. I tried to update the timezone setting for 200 pictures, took around an hour."
...just when we thought that FCP's handling of image sequences couldn't get any slower...
I agree, though, Apple will put a shiny user interface on it. But the underlying database will be something that a 3rd-year computer science student could do a better job on.
Apple doesn't care about efficiency because they can always sell you a faster computer to take care of that. Hmm, the Finder doesn't allow you to move a folder with 5,000 tiff files? No problem, just buy a Quad! Even iTunes gets slow and crashes when you try to add too many songs.
Comparing Aperture's database to a real database system (such as the Oracle one discreet uses with toxik) is a joke. I am very worried that Apple will do something Aperture-like to FCP.
Quote from Apple support forums:
"I am confused about why updating Metadata takes so long. I tried to update the timezone setting for 200 pictures, took around an hour."
...just when we thought that FCP's handling of image sequences couldn't get any slower...
I agree, though, Apple will put a shiny user interface on it. But the underlying database will be something that a 3rd-year computer science student could do a better job on.
Apple doesn't care about efficiency because they can always sell you a faster computer to take care of that. Hmm, the Finder doesn't allow you to move a folder with 5,000 tiff files? No problem, just buy a Quad! Even iTunes gets slow and crashes when you try to add too many songs.
>>>Of course, you now have the question - what does the indie filmmaker want?
1. 3D - definitely - think virtual set extensions, matched to a moving camera track.
2. OpenGL - yes - using a commodity 3D card to get faster rendering is GOOD
3. cache - yes - more responsive is GOOD
4. client friendliness - hmm, "true" indies might say that they are uninterested in doing commercials or music videos or things that require clients, but that is probably because they are living with their parents and have no clue of how the industry works... and how many indie directors survive thanks to commercial work.<<<
Hey Mr Bruce Allen,
Please don't generalize all indie filmmakers into one group.
How about just saying what you want, and let other indies speak for themselves.
As far as I can see, most indies have a handful just dealing with software they have already. Shake is a very dense program for anyone to use, let alone indies who rather be making movies than spending their time learning new software.
I'm sure they would rather work with indie fx artists, who would be more inclined to learn Shake.
Just because a "true" indie doesn't want to deal with clients, doesn't mean they don't know how the industry works, it's because they choose not to deal with clients.
True this may be too idealistic, but some people can be that idealistic and make it work, even if it means making sacrifices like having to live with their parents.
I know a few filmmakers who do exactly that, and are pretty happy with their situation. They may take on a few jobs here and there to survive, but overall they use their time to do whatever creative endeavor they come up with.
So Mr. Allen, just because they work in their own bubble and can sustain it, doesn't give you the right to put them down.
1. 3D - definitely - think virtual set extensions, matched to a moving camera track.
2. OpenGL - yes - using a commodity 3D card to get faster rendering is GOOD
3. cache - yes - more responsive is GOOD
4. client friendliness - hmm, "true" indies might say that they are uninterested in doing commercials or music videos or things that require clients, but that is probably because they are living with their parents and have no clue of how the industry works... and how many indie directors survive thanks to commercial work.<<<
Hey Mr Bruce Allen,
Please don't generalize all indie filmmakers into one group.
How about just saying what you want, and let other indies speak for themselves.
As far as I can see, most indies have a handful just dealing with software they have already. Shake is a very dense program for anyone to use, let alone indies who rather be making movies than spending their time learning new software.
I'm sure they would rather work with indie fx artists, who would be more inclined to learn Shake.
Just because a "true" indie doesn't want to deal with clients, doesn't mean they don't know how the industry works, it's because they choose not to deal with clients.
True this may be too idealistic, but some people can be that idealistic and make it work, even if it means making sacrifices like having to live with their parents.
I know a few filmmakers who do exactly that, and are pretty happy with their situation. They may take on a few jobs here and there to survive, but overall they use their time to do whatever creative endeavor they come up with.
So Mr. Allen, just because they work in their own bubble and can sustain it, doesn't give you the right to put them down.
# posted by : Wed Jun 21, 11:59:00 AM CST
: Wed Jun 21, 11:59:00 AM CST
Funny how this discussion and this transition point for Shake sets me wondering about how Silicon Grail/RAYZ/Chalice ever worked or is working into the equation.
Apple first purchased Shake if I am correct, and then (in the same year maybe) purchased the set of tools from Silicon Grail (RFX). The interfaces between the two apps were familar, but RAYZ was already doing 2K realtime and decent 4K (2002). RAYZ had a render that was superior to that of the scanline from Shake. It's cache/frame flipbook was also suppose to be highly advanced and the color correction tools because of the code written was more current then Shake's.
And this could be faulty memory, but I thought I remember going to a Siggraph and meeting one of the guys from the company talking about a future database integration they were working on (they were in a SGI booth if I remember right so it could of been SGI).
I can't believe apple didn't / isn't using some of those powerfull tools from that app that seemed way ahead of it's time.
Michael McLaughlin
Apple first purchased Shake if I am correct, and then (in the same year maybe) purchased the set of tools from Silicon Grail (RFX). The interfaces between the two apps were familar, but RAYZ was already doing 2K realtime and decent 4K (2002). RAYZ had a render that was superior to that of the scanline from Shake. It's cache/frame flipbook was also suppose to be highly advanced and the color correction tools because of the code written was more current then Shake's.
And this could be faulty memory, but I thought I remember going to a Siggraph and meeting one of the guys from the company talking about a future database integration they were working on (they were in a SGI booth if I remember right so it could of been SGI).
I can't believe apple didn't / isn't using some of those powerfull tools from that app that seemed way ahead of it's time.
Michael McLaughlin
# posted by : Wed Jun 21, 12:47:00 PM CST
: Wed Jun 21, 12:47:00 PM CST
Apple doesn't care about efficiency because they can always sell you a faster computer to take care of that. Hmm, the Finder doesn't allow you to move a folder with 5,000 tiff files? No problem, just buy a Quad! Even iTunes gets slow and crashes when you try to add too many songs.
Why should Apple care? One of their competitors stores timecode in a file name and reel number in a folder name and everybody is happy.
Now to derail the discussion further QuickTime is not pure evil. QT Movie is just a container and pretty smart one. I know FX and 3D artists prefer image sequences but I'm an editor and I'm just fine with .mov's. Now fast, efficient and transparent way of QT wrapper around image sequences should've been there years ago but there is one more reason to do it now - Camera RAW support. Look at the latest crop of cameras at NAB06. They all do RAW it seems.
Why should Apple care? One of their competitors stores timecode in a file name and reel number in a folder name and everybody is happy.
Now to derail the discussion further QuickTime is not pure evil. QT Movie is just a container and pretty smart one. I know FX and 3D artists prefer image sequences but I'm an editor and I'm just fine with .mov's. Now fast, efficient and transparent way of QT wrapper around image sequences should've been there years ago but there is one more reason to do it now - Camera RAW support. Look at the latest crop of cameras at NAB06. They all do RAW it seems.
# posted by : Wed Jun 21, 01:09:00 PM CST
: Wed Jun 21, 01:09:00 PM CST
I don't think it will be a couple of years before we see the "next generation Shake". I'd put money on a NAB 2007 announcement cos the reality is they've probably been working on this for many months already.
There has to be a reason why NAB2006 was a quiet year for Apple right? Really BIG things coming down the pipeline.
There has to be a reason why NAB2006 was a quiet year for Apple right? Really BIG things coming down the pipeline.
# posted by : Wed Jun 21, 01:23:00 PM CST
: Wed Jun 21, 01:23:00 PM CST
I disagree... the intel move was why we saw NADA at NAB2006. Apple has never missed out at NAB. This year they literally could not even promise jack and so we only saw MacBook Pros... otherwise we'd have heard something, anything.... but nada.
The transition has obviously not been as smooth as steve would want you to think.
The transition has obviously not been as smooth as steve would want you to think.
# posted by : Thu Jun 22, 08:57:00 PM CST
: Thu Jun 22, 08:57:00 PM CST
Fusion 5 bitch slaps Shake. Why wait 'til 2008 for Apple when you can have real 3D compositing now?
I don't get the mac community. FCP edits slip... the media management sucks compared to Avid and yet you hear rumblings of how good apple post is??? I don't get it.
I love my mac and iLife'06. I like iWork'06. But for pro level editing, 3D and compositing the PC still owns that market. Although there are some AVID guys that claim editing with Xpress Pro on a Mac rules... I have yet to see this be the case. But for media management and rock solid (never slipping, never losing your edits) reliability, Avid Xpress Pro is way ahead of FCP reliability.
Features? I like FCP better... but better means nothing when your edits drift as I've seen way too many times on forums and at user groups (FCP).
Shake is awesome. I truly appreciate Shake because it is what got me into node based compositing. When I found Fusion 5 I was willing to deal with some of the initial bugs because the features are way beyond Shake in some many ways. Faster, better.
I've seen a TON of folks posting that they are now buying shake. At that price you can't lose. The optical flow, tracking, cc and more is well worth that price. Just don't count on speed.
I love my mac with the prosumer apps, but the brutal reality is that Apple was unable to buy Maya, screwed up with Motion and still hasn't made FCP worthy of film work.
Shake is the only pro-level app they have and now they are bailing on it??? I find it so amusing.
Again, I love my mac... but I didn't drink the koolaid so I am not some cult driven machead.
I don't get the mac community. FCP edits slip... the media management sucks compared to Avid and yet you hear rumblings of how good apple post is??? I don't get it.
I love my mac and iLife'06. I like iWork'06. But for pro level editing, 3D and compositing the PC still owns that market. Although there are some AVID guys that claim editing with Xpress Pro on a Mac rules... I have yet to see this be the case. But for media management and rock solid (never slipping, never losing your edits) reliability, Avid Xpress Pro is way ahead of FCP reliability.
Features? I like FCP better... but better means nothing when your edits drift as I've seen way too many times on forums and at user groups (FCP).
Shake is awesome. I truly appreciate Shake because it is what got me into node based compositing. When I found Fusion 5 I was willing to deal with some of the initial bugs because the features are way beyond Shake in some many ways. Faster, better.
I've seen a TON of folks posting that they are now buying shake. At that price you can't lose. The optical flow, tracking, cc and more is well worth that price. Just don't count on speed.
I love my mac with the prosumer apps, but the brutal reality is that Apple was unable to buy Maya, screwed up with Motion and still hasn't made FCP worthy of film work.
Shake is the only pro-level app they have and now they are bailing on it??? I find it so amusing.
Again, I love my mac... but I didn't drink the koolaid so I am not some cult driven machead.
# posted by : Thu Jun 22, 09:08:00 PM CST
: Thu Jun 22, 09:08:00 PM CST
Anonymous - OK, I will rise to the flame bait, but only just barely, and if you cross the line again your comments will be deleted.
1.) "FCP edits slip" - define your terms
2.) media management - improved w/v5.1, finally! But fixed AFAIK. The flexibility to relink to anything is a BIG improvement over Avid, you can treat FCP as a cross between a database and a page layout app the way it links to files.
3.) Whatever Avid can or can't do in terms of reliability compared to FCP, it can't do a righteous online quality (uncompressed) for less than about 3 uncompressed FCP stations worth of cost.
4.) Again, define drifty edits.
5.) And careful there. Critique, yes, but don't bash or flame bait.
-mike, Ruler Of The Blog (yeah I been drinkin', why you ask? Saw a Serenity screening, and yes people were in costume. Yes, I knew some of them. No, I wasn't one of them.)
1.) "FCP edits slip" - define your terms
2.) media management - improved w/v5.1, finally! But fixed AFAIK. The flexibility to relink to anything is a BIG improvement over Avid, you can treat FCP as a cross between a database and a page layout app the way it links to files.
3.) Whatever Avid can or can't do in terms of reliability compared to FCP, it can't do a righteous online quality (uncompressed) for less than about 3 uncompressed FCP stations worth of cost.
4.) Again, define drifty edits.
5.) And careful there. Critique, yes, but don't bash or flame bait.
-mike, Ruler Of The Blog (yeah I been drinkin', why you ask? Saw a Serenity screening, and yes people were in costume. Yes, I knew some of them. No, I wasn't one of them.)
Mike ruler of the Blog.
A lot of your readers ought to learn to look forward instead of back.
Shake is a wonderful application and at £325 its the biggest bargain in the vfx market. Everyone should own it.
They gave us Motion surely a proof of concept. In fact I was laughed at for saying such a thing. I said, "If Discreet aren't scared by this little applicaion then they should be." It was met by roars of laughter. He who laughs last laughs the loudest...
I have always sat on the PC side of the pond but it was Motion that made me sit up and take notice. Something that I'd always seen with Apple products was their ambition to take on established big names and markets. FCP mixed it with Avid and now I believe Apple will take on Discreet.
If the rumours are correct and the new software is slated for a 2008 release. By that time we will be in the realm of quads and quadcore processors a real possibility of an 8 or even 16 core workstation being available. Graphics card manufacturers are too looking at multicore solutions in that time frame. Quad SLI is a rela possibility.
To take advantage of the new architecture Shake would have to be re-written from the gound up. Its one thing to be optimised for multi-threading but quite another to take full advantage of a multi-processor system. So its only right that the next product is based on a new code base.
Check out the processor and graphics card manufacturer's roadmaps.
I am willing to be laughed at but believe that Apple are developing a Flame level realtime compositor to replace Shake.
Laugh away....
A lot of your readers ought to learn to look forward instead of back.
Shake is a wonderful application and at £325 its the biggest bargain in the vfx market. Everyone should own it.
They gave us Motion surely a proof of concept. In fact I was laughed at for saying such a thing. I said, "If Discreet aren't scared by this little applicaion then they should be." It was met by roars of laughter. He who laughs last laughs the loudest...
I have always sat on the PC side of the pond but it was Motion that made me sit up and take notice. Something that I'd always seen with Apple products was their ambition to take on established big names and markets. FCP mixed it with Avid and now I believe Apple will take on Discreet.
If the rumours are correct and the new software is slated for a 2008 release. By that time we will be in the realm of quads and quadcore processors a real possibility of an 8 or even 16 core workstation being available. Graphics card manufacturers are too looking at multicore solutions in that time frame. Quad SLI is a rela possibility.
To take advantage of the new architecture Shake would have to be re-written from the gound up. Its one thing to be optimised for multi-threading but quite another to take full advantage of a multi-processor system. So its only right that the next product is based on a new code base.
Check out the processor and graphics card manufacturer's roadmaps.
I am willing to be laughed at but believe that Apple are developing a Flame level realtime compositor to replace Shake.
Laugh away....
# posted by : Fri Jun 23, 02:38:00 AM CST
: Fri Jun 23, 02:38:00 AM CST
What this means to me. I'm a long time AE user and have been knowing that eventually I'd need to put my nose to the grindstone and really learn shake beyond the first set of tutorials.
And now I don't have to! :)
Sounds like they are going to change the whole user interface. So, I upgraded my AE today and that ought to hold me until the Phenomenon occurs. Boy, if it were to be a FCP/shake combo thing... wow. That'd be something cool.
And now I don't have to! :)
Sounds like they are going to change the whole user interface. So, I upgraded my AE today and that ought to hold me until the Phenomenon occurs. Boy, if it were to be a FCP/shake combo thing... wow. That'd be something cool.
# posted by : Fri Jun 23, 03:40:00 AM CST
: Fri Jun 23, 03:40:00 AM CST
I'd be very suprised if this next gen app is not node based like Shake is now. So learning shake still makes a hell of a lot of sense.
# posted by : Fri Jun 23, 10:20:00 AM CST
: Fri Jun 23, 10:20:00 AM CST
Yikes. Talk about a pissy person (anonymous, above).
"still hasn't made FCP worthy of film work"
OK, this is why you shouldn't take X before you post. I know a lot of "real" editors doing features. A couple of them have been nominated for bigtime awards (cough! Oscar. cough!). They sure don't think like you do. FCP has been being used for bigtime features since Walter M used it on Cold Mountain.
It all comes down to the right tool for the job. And every job's different.
For me, I won't work on a PC in my studio. I don't have the time to deal with it. My clients need fast turnaround and reliability. My FCP and Shake systems do that.
"still hasn't made FCP worthy of film work"
OK, this is why you shouldn't take X before you post. I know a lot of "real" editors doing features. A couple of them have been nominated for bigtime awards (cough! Oscar. cough!). They sure don't think like you do. FCP has been being used for bigtime features since Walter M used it on Cold Mountain.
It all comes down to the right tool for the job. And every job's different.
For me, I won't work on a PC in my studio. I don't have the time to deal with it. My clients need fast turnaround and reliability. My FCP and Shake systems do that.
Interesting that most of the negative comments are Anonymous.
This EOL for Shake as it is, is all good.
And FCP is being used for features but the lack of mention of lightworks systems just goes to show that the people making such comments and bitching about FCP are probably just corporate and wedding video jerks who wish they worked in the industry and think that because they have avid xpress on a pc they are somehow 'professional'
Cheers,
Toby
This EOL for Shake as it is, is all good.
And FCP is being used for features but the lack of mention of lightworks systems just goes to show that the people making such comments and bitching about FCP are probably just corporate and wedding video jerks who wish they worked in the industry and think that because they have avid xpress on a pc they are somehow 'professional'
Cheers,
Toby
"Today was pulling keys with HDV footage in an environment that was not ideal. They had a very small green and bluescreen stage, the actors were only about 6 feet from the screens which were not evenly lit. Plus we did some Star Trek transporter fun stuff with 'em. Shake was the right tool to use in this case."
---Pat
I agree with Pat. Shake's keying tools are excellent!. We were even able to get a decent key off an unlit greyscreen shot on miniDV. Luckily it was just a documentary with hardly any movement but Shake definitely saved the day! I may just have to buy a copy for myself.... I have heard integration with Maya is not quite there yet, and now, I guess it will never get there....
- Curran
---Pat
I agree with Pat. Shake's keying tools are excellent!. We were even able to get a decent key off an unlit greyscreen shot on miniDV. Luckily it was just a documentary with hardly any movement but Shake definitely saved the day! I may just have to buy a copy for myself.... I have heard integration with Maya is not quite there yet, and now, I guess it will never get there....
- Curran
# posted by : Mon Jun 26, 08:02:00 PM CST
: Mon Jun 26, 08:02:00 PM CST
As someone commented previously about the next generation of apple's high end compositing tool (or whatever integration it may meld into), i hope ever so greatly that it retains the node based workflow. A few years ago when i began in the post industry, i was fascinated with systems like Flame and Smoke. A number of months ago i was ready to dive into the world of Shake, and i've loved it ever since. I know the rumors span the gamut on how this may end up, but the node based workflow (as such used the those other products mentioned, as well as many others) is the workflow which lends itself best to this type of work. The bottom line in my comment here is that i hope, and hope and hope, the next incarnation of such a product will not stray from this basic methodology and workflow.
While a year or two away, the signs point to a very positive outcome... one way or another.
While a year or two away, the signs point to a very positive outcome... one way or another.
情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,按摩棒,跳蛋,充氣娃娃,情境坊歡愉用品,情趣用品,情人節禮物,情惑用品性易購,A片,視訊聊天室,視訊,視訊聊天,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,聊天室,UT聊天室,免費視訊,視訊交友,免費視訊聊天室
免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,免費AV,色情網站,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人影片,成人網站,A片,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,情色網,日本A片,免費A片下載,性愛
A片,色情,成人,做愛,情色文學,A片下載,色情遊戲,色情影片,色情聊天室,情色電影,免費視訊,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,一葉情貼圖片區,情色,情色視訊,免費成人影片,視訊交友,視訊聊天,視訊聊天室,言情小說,愛情小說,AIO,AV片,A漫,av dvd,聊天室,自拍,情色論壇,視訊美女,AV成人網,色情A片,SEX,成人圖片區
情趣用品,A片,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,色情網站,免費AV,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人網站,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,成人影片,情色網
情趣用品,A片,免費A片,日本A片,A片下載,線上A片,成人電影,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,微風成人區,成人文章,成人影城,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,臺灣情色網,色情,情色電影,色情遊戲,嘟嘟情人色網,麗的色遊戲,情色論壇,色情網站,一葉情貼圖片區,做愛,性愛,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,美女交友,做愛影片
av,情趣用品,a片,成人電影,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,aio,av女優,AV,免費A片,日本a片,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,聊天室,美女交友,成人光碟
情趣用品.A片,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,色情遊戲,色情網站,聊天室,ut聊天室,豆豆聊天室,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,免費A片,日本a片,a片下載,線上a片,av女優,av,成人電影,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,成人網站,自拍,尋夢園聊天室
免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,免費AV,色情網站,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人影片,成人網站,A片,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,情色網,日本A片,免費A片下載,性愛
A片,色情,成人,做愛,情色文學,A片下載,色情遊戲,色情影片,色情聊天室,情色電影,免費視訊,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,一葉情貼圖片區,情色,情色視訊,免費成人影片,視訊交友,視訊聊天,視訊聊天室,言情小說,愛情小說,AIO,AV片,A漫,av dvd,聊天室,自拍,情色論壇,視訊美女,AV成人網,色情A片,SEX,成人圖片區
情趣用品,A片,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,色情網站,免費AV,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人網站,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,成人影片,情色網
情趣用品,A片,免費A片,日本A片,A片下載,線上A片,成人電影,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,微風成人區,成人文章,成人影城,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,臺灣情色網,色情,情色電影,色情遊戲,嘟嘟情人色網,麗的色遊戲,情色論壇,色情網站,一葉情貼圖片區,做愛,性愛,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,美女交友,做愛影片
av,情趣用品,a片,成人電影,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,aio,av女優,AV,免費A片,日本a片,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,聊天室,美女交友,成人光碟
情趣用品.A片,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,色情遊戲,色情網站,聊天室,ut聊天室,豆豆聊天室,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,免費A片,日本a片,a片下載,線上a片,av女優,av,成人電影,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,成人網站,自拍,尋夢園聊天室
成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲
小老鼠米克情色網小老鼠米克情色網小老鼠米克情色網小老鼠米克情色網小老鼠米克情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網綜合論壇台灣情色網激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇激凸成人論壇aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看aa 片試看嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片嘟嘟免費試看短片觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格觀賞色美媚部落格免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片免費色倩短片線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播線上 a 電影直播免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網免費色咪咪影片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網sexA片網女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍女優色情自拍情色遊戲情色遊戲情色遊戲情色遊戲情色遊戲
ドルチェ&ガッバーナDOLCE & GABBANAドルチェ&ガッバーナ バッグドルチェ&ガッバーナ 財布ドルチェ&ガッバーナ ネックレスドルチェ&ガッバーナ サングラスドルチェ&ガッバーナ リングドルチェ&ガッバーナ 香水ドルチェ&ガッバーナ シューズドルチェ&ガッバーナ アウタードルチェ&ガッバーナ インナードルチェ&ガッバーナ シャツドルチェ&ガッバーナ ジーンズドルチェ&ガッバーナ 時計ドルチェ&ガッバーナ Tシャツグッチgucciグッチ バッググッチ 財布グッチ ネックレスグッチ サングラスグッチ リンググッチ 香水グッチ シューズグッチ アウターグッチ シャツグッチ ジーンズグッチ 時計グッチ Tシャツグッチ アウターグッチ インナーディオールChristian Diorディオール バッグディオール 財布ディオール ネックレスディオール サングラスディオール リングディオール 香水ディオール シューズディオール アウターディオール シャツディオール ジーンズディオール Tシャツディオール 時計ディオール インナーヴィトンLOUIS VUITTONヴィトン バッグヴィトン 財布ヴィトン ネックレスヴィトン サングラスヴィトン リングヴィトン シューズヴィトン アウターヴィトン シャツヴィトン ジーンズヴィトン Tシャツヴィトン 時計シャネルCHANELシャネル バッグシャネル 財布シャネル ネックレスシャネル サングラスシャネル リングシャネル 香水シャネル シューズシャネル アウターシャネル シャツシャネル ジーンズシャネル Tシャツシャネル 時計シャネル インナーシャネル ワンピースプラダpradaプラダ バッグプラダ 財布プラダ ネックレスプラダ サングラスプラダ キーリングプラダ 香水プラダ シューズプラダ アウタープラダ シャツプラダ ジーンズプラダ Tシャツプラダ 時計フェラガモSALVATORE FERRAGAMOフェラガモ バッグフェラガモ 財布フェラガモ ネックレスフェラガモ サングラスフェラガモ キーリングフェラガモ 香水フェラガモ シューズフェラガモ アウターフェラガモ シャツフェラガモ パンツフェラガモ Tシャツフェラガモ 時計セリーヌCELINEセリーヌ バッグセリーヌ 財布セリーヌ ネックレスセリーヌ サングラスセリーヌ リングセリーヌ 香水セリーヌ シューズセリーヌ アウターセリーヌ シャツセリーヌ ジーンズセリーヌ TシャツボッテガBOTTEGA VENETAボッテガ バッグボッテガ 財布ボッテガ ネックレスボッテガ サングラスボッテガ リングボッテガ 香水ボッテガ シューズボッテガ アウターボッテガ シャツボッテガ ジーンズボッテガ TシャツコーチCOACHコーチ バッグコーチ 財布コーチ ネックレスコーチ サングラスコーチ リングコーチ 香水コーチ シューズコーチ アウターコーチ シャツコーチ ジーンズコーチ Tシャツコーチ 時計ダンヒルdunhillダンヒル バッグダンヒル 財布ダンヒル カフスボタンダンヒル サングラスダンヒル リングダンヒル 香水ダンヒル シューズダンヒル アウターダンヒル シャツダンヒル ジーンズダンヒル Tシャツダンヒル 時計ロエベLOEWEロエベ バッグロエベ 財布ロエベ ネックレスロエベ サングラスロエベ キーホルダーロエベ 香水ロエベ シューズロエベ アウターロエベ シャツロエベ ジーンズロエベ TシャツディーゼルDIESELディーゼル バッグディーゼル 財布ディーゼル ネックレスディーゼル サングラスディーゼル リングディーゼル 香水ディーゼル シューズディーゼル アウターディーゼル シャツディーゼル ジーンズディーゼル Tシャツディーゼル 時計ディーゼル インナーデリヘル 大阪仙台 デリヘル仙台 風俗仙台 デリヘル仙台 風俗仙台 デリヘル仙台 風俗家族葬滋賀 賃貸葬儀 費用滋賀県の賃貸滋賀の賃貸アダルト SEO被リンク相互リンク茶道具 買取絵画 買取レザー革小物クレジットカード 現金化現金化ショッピング枠 現金化クレジットカード 現金化現金化ショッピング枠 現金化脱毛 大阪埋没 大阪わきが 大阪オーロラ 大阪クリニックエスニックタウンサーチ探偵 大阪浮気調査 大阪素行調査 大阪別れさせ 大阪吹田 美容室エステ 尼崎メナード 梅田資生堂マックスファクターノエビアSK-IIメナードカネボウアルビオンアナスイイヴサンローランエスティローダーエルメスクリスチャンディオールクロエシャネルジルスチュアートブルガリメイベリンランコムFXFX 比較FX 初心者ブランド通販ヴィヴィアンウエストウッドティファニーディオールドルチェ＆ガッバーナダイエットダイエット食品美容ボディケア通販キャッシング大阪 賃貸中古車 販売ルームウェア大阪 マンション賃貸マンション 神戸中古 ゴルフクラブクールビズフィットネスクラブ大阪府 司法書士クレジット 申し込みベビードール矯正歯科 東京ホワイトニング 東京大阪 ラブホテルリサイクルショップ不動産カードローン投資 信託下着即日 キャッシング三井住友銀行神戸市 中央区 税理士FX消費者金融ローン引越し生命保険ジェルネイル人材派遣ネット証券アフィリエイト格安航空券ウィークリーマンションレンタカーSEOオフィス家具合宿免許ペット用品高速バスデリヘルキャバクラ派遣コラーゲン化粧品インテリアウェディング結婚相談投資物件留学貸事務所 大阪経営コンサルティング工芸品高級品自動車保険ホテヘルレストランウェディングバイク買取運転免許ベビーカー外反母趾圧力鍋腕時計フェラガモデリヘルキャバクラセレブプラセンタカルシウム青汁ブルーベリー家具脱毛クリーム除毛クリームコスト削減 大阪弁護士 大阪車買取 大阪バイク買取 大阪エステ 大阪リフォーム 大阪
大阪 歯科派遣 大阪アルバイト 大阪転職 大阪大阪 住宅大阪 専門学校グルメ 大阪ホテル 大阪一戸建て 大阪大阪 宿泊大阪 マンションデリヘル 大阪印刷 大阪不動産 大阪賃貸 大阪ブライダル 大阪リサイクルアダルト SEO賃貸SEO 大阪イベント コンパニオン 大阪転職 大阪大阪 ラブホペット ショップ 大阪豆腐京都 不動産運転免許 合宿ヘアアイロンダイエットダイエットデリヘルキャバクラシャンパン老人ホーム精力剤大阪 ラブホテルブランド品 買取ワイン京都 不動産ペットリサイクルショップ歯科求人結婚式場バイク便動物病院美容整形外科エルメスダイエットダイエット食品腕時計ヘアアイロンクレイツアイビルa
アドストバッグネイルアクセンツヘアアイロンクレイツシャンプーアイビルジェルネイル育毛剤ドライヤーアゲハ嬢ダイエットサプリリサイクルショップ 大阪リサイクルショップ 東京リサイクルショップ 名古屋fx 口座開設fx 資料請求FX 比較大阪 不動産不動産 投資不動産 比較投資 信託 大阪投資 信託 初心者下着 女性下着 男性下着 ブログ消費者金融 審査消費者金融 ランキング消費者金融 大阪ローン 比較ローン 自動車ローン 金利引っ越し 比較引っ越し 口コミ引っ越し 挨拶保険 資料請求保険 比較保険 ランキングジェルネイル やり方ジェルネイル デザインジェルネイル 激安人材派遣 関西人材派遣 仕組みネット証券 選び方ネット証券 初心者ネット証券 手数料アフィリエイト 初心者アフィリエイト 稼ぐアフィリエイト 比較国内格安航空券格安航空券 海外格安航空券 沖縄ウィークリーマンション 東京ウィークリーマンション 大阪ウィークリーマンション 福岡レンタカー 格安レンタカー 沖縄レンタカー 東京オフィス家具 中古オフィス家具 激安オフィス家具 買取合宿免許 激安合宿免許 沖縄合宿免許 大型ペット用品 激安ペット用品 犬ペット用品 通販高速バス 時刻表高速バス 名古屋高速バス 大阪デリヘル 仙台デリヘル 大阪デリヘル 東京キャバクラ 求人キャバクラ 東京キャバクラ 大阪圧力鍋 歴史圧力鍋 構造圧力鍋 ランキングフェラガモ バッグフェラガモ 靴フェラガモ 財布セレブ 海外セレブ ファションセレブ ゴシップ青汁 ランキング青汁 効果青汁 口コミブルーベリー 栽培ブルーベリー 利用ブルーベリー 生産家具 イケア家具 ニトリ家具 イームズ脱毛クリーム 永久脱毛クリーム 男性脱毛クリーム 比較除毛クリーム ランキング除毛クリーム 男性除毛クリーム トラブル弁護士 大阪 制度弁護士 大阪 費用弁護士 大阪 トラブル車買取 大阪 相場車買取 大阪 査定車買取 大阪 比較エステ 大阪 フェイシャルエステ 大阪 求人エステ 大阪 メンズリフォーム 大阪 キッチンリフォーム 大阪 マンションリフォーム 大阪 外壁大阪 歯医者 ランキング大阪 歯医者 料金大阪 歯医者 矯正派遣 大阪 求人派遣 大阪 短期派遣 大阪 ランキングアルバイト 大阪 検索アルバイト 大阪 短期アルバイト 大阪 口コミ転職 大阪 求人転職 大阪 ランキング転職 大阪 女性大阪 住宅 検索大阪 住宅 ローン大阪 住宅 中古専門学校 大阪 美容専門学校 大阪 看護専門学校 大阪 調理大阪 グルメ カフェ大阪 グルメ お好み焼き大阪 グルメ たこ焼きホテル 大阪 シティホテルホテル 大阪 ビジネスホテルホテル 大阪 モーテル大阪 一戸建て 検索大阪 一戸建て 口コミ大阪 一戸建て ランキング大阪 宿泊 格安大阪 宿泊 高級大阪 宿泊 口コミ大阪 マンション 新築大阪 マンション 中古大阪 マンション 賃貸大阪 デリヘル 人妻大阪 デリヘル ＯＬ大阪 デリヘル 3Ｐ印刷 大阪 チラシ印刷 大阪 名刺印刷 大阪 格安大阪 不動産 検索大阪 不動産 分譲大阪 不動産 比較大阪 賃貸 学生大阪 賃貸 格安大阪 賃貸 マンションブライダル 大阪 ホテルブライダル 大阪 ヘアブライダル 大阪 プランナーリサイクルショップ 東京リサイクルショップ 大阪リサイクルショップ 比較アダルト ＳＥＯ 方法アダルト ＳＥＯ 大阪アダルト ＳＥＯ 口コミ賃貸 検索賃貸 大阪賃貸 学生リサイクルショップ 大阪リサイクルショップ 東京リサイクルショップ 名古屋ホワイトニング 東京 料金ホワイトニング 東京 口コミホワイトニング 東京 格安ベビードール 子供ベビードール 通販ベビードール 大阪大阪 司法書士 試験大阪 司法書士 年収大阪 司法書士 求人フィットネスクラブ 大阪フィットネスクラブ 仙台フィットネスクラブ 滋賀
大阪 歯科派遣 大阪アルバイト 大阪転職 大阪大阪 住宅大阪 専門学校グルメ 大阪ホテル 大阪一戸建て 大阪大阪 宿泊大阪 マンションデリヘル 大阪印刷 大阪不動産 大阪賃貸 大阪ブライダル 大阪リサイクルアダルト SEO賃貸SEO 大阪イベント コンパニオン 大阪転職 大阪大阪 ラブホペット ショップ 大阪豆腐京都 不動産運転免許 合宿ヘアアイロンダイエットダイエットデリヘルキャバクラシャンパン老人ホーム精力剤大阪 ラブホテルブランド品 買取ワイン京都 不動産ペットリサイクルショップ歯科求人結婚式場バイク便動物病院美容整形外科エルメスダイエットダイエット食品腕時計ヘアアイロンクレイツアイビルa
アドストバッグネイルアクセンツヘアアイロンクレイツシャンプーアイビルジェルネイル育毛剤ドライヤーアゲハ嬢ダイエットサプリリサイクルショップ 大阪リサイクルショップ 東京リサイクルショップ 名古屋fx 口座開設fx 資料請求FX 比較大阪 不動産不動産 投資不動産 比較投資 信託 大阪投資 信託 初心者下着 女性下着 男性下着 ブログ消費者金融 審査消費者金融 ランキング消費者金融 大阪ローン 比較ローン 自動車ローン 金利引っ越し 比較引っ越し 口コミ引っ越し 挨拶保険 資料請求保険 比較保険 ランキングジェルネイル やり方ジェルネイル デザインジェルネイル 激安人材派遣 関西人材派遣 仕組みネット証券 選び方ネット証券 初心者ネット証券 手数料アフィリエイト 初心者アフィリエイト 稼ぐアフィリエイト 比較国内格安航空券格安航空券 海外格安航空券 沖縄ウィークリーマンション 東京ウィークリーマンション 大阪ウィークリーマンション 福岡レンタカー 格安レンタカー 沖縄レンタカー 東京オフィス家具 中古オフィス家具 激安オフィス家具 買取合宿免許 激安合宿免許 沖縄合宿免許 大型ペット用品 激安ペット用品 犬ペット用品 通販高速バス 時刻表高速バス 名古屋高速バス 大阪デリヘル 仙台デリヘル 大阪デリヘル 東京キャバクラ 求人キャバクラ 東京キャバクラ 大阪圧力鍋 歴史圧力鍋 構造圧力鍋 ランキングフェラガモ バッグフェラガモ 靴フェラガモ 財布セレブ 海外セレブ ファションセレブ ゴシップ青汁 ランキング青汁 効果青汁 口コミブルーベリー 栽培ブルーベリー 利用ブルーベリー 生産家具 イケア家具 ニトリ家具 イームズ脱毛クリーム 永久脱毛クリーム 男性脱毛クリーム 比較除毛クリーム ランキング除毛クリーム 男性除毛クリーム トラブル弁護士 大阪 制度弁護士 大阪 費用弁護士 大阪 トラブル車買取 大阪 相場車買取 大阪 査定車買取 大阪 比較エステ 大阪 フェイシャルエステ 大阪 求人エステ 大阪 メンズリフォーム 大阪 キッチンリフォーム 大阪 マンションリフォーム 大阪 外壁大阪 歯医者 ランキング大阪 歯医者 料金大阪 歯医者 矯正派遣 大阪 求人派遣 大阪 短期派遣 大阪 ランキングアルバイト 大阪 検索アルバイト 大阪 短期アルバイト 大阪 口コミ転職 大阪 求人転職 大阪 ランキング転職 大阪 女性大阪 住宅 検索大阪 住宅 ローン大阪 住宅 中古専門学校 大阪 美容専門学校 大阪 看護専門学校 大阪 調理大阪 グルメ カフェ大阪 グルメ お好み焼き大阪 グルメ たこ焼きホテル 大阪 シティホテルホテル 大阪 ビジネスホテルホテル 大阪 モーテル大阪 一戸建て 検索大阪 一戸建て 口コミ大阪 一戸建て ランキング大阪 宿泊 格安大阪 宿泊 高級大阪 宿泊 口コミ大阪 マンション 新築大阪 マンション 中古大阪 マンション 賃貸大阪 デリヘル 人妻大阪 デリヘル ＯＬ大阪 デリヘル 3Ｐ印刷 大阪 チラシ印刷 大阪 名刺印刷 大阪 格安大阪 不動産 検索大阪 不動産 分譲大阪 不動産 比較大阪 賃貸 学生大阪 賃貸 格安大阪 賃貸 マンションブライダル 大阪 ホテルブライダル 大阪 ヘアブライダル 大阪 プランナーリサイクルショップ 東京リサイクルショップ 大阪リサイクルショップ 比較アダルト ＳＥＯ 方法アダルト ＳＥＯ 大阪アダルト ＳＥＯ 口コミ賃貸 検索賃貸 大阪賃貸 学生リサイクルショップ 大阪リサイクルショップ 東京リサイクルショップ 名古屋ホワイトニング 東京 料金ホワイトニング 東京 口コミホワイトニング 東京 格安ベビードール 子供ベビードール 通販ベビードール 大阪大阪 司法書士 試験大阪 司法書士 年収大阪 司法書士 求人フィットネスクラブ 大阪フィットネスクラブ 仙台フィットネスクラブ 滋賀
視訊聊天室,視訊聊天,聊天室,視訊,情色視訊,免費視訊聊天室,視訊交友,成人聊天室,情色交友,嘟嘟成人網,免費視訊,微風成人區,尋夢聊天室,聊天室尋夢園,情色網,女優,AV女優,UT聊天室,自拍,豆豆聊天室,18成人,免費A片,做愛,成人貼圖,美女交友,視訊做愛,做愛,日本AV,080聊天室,本圖自拍,A片,免費A片,成人論壇,一夜情聊天室,情人,12星座情人,
艾葳酒店經紀提供專業的酒店經紀,酒店上班,酒店打工、兼職、酒店相關知識等酒店相關產業服務,想加入這行業的水水們請找專業又有保障的艾葳酒店經紀公司!
艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司、我們是不會跟水水簽任何的合約 ( 請放心 )，我們是不會強押水水辛苦工作的薪水，我們絕對不會對任何人公開水水的資料、工作環境高雅時尚，無業績壓力，無脫秀無喝酒壓力，高層次會員制客源，工作輕鬆。
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已，對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有！艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪，不需擔心！只提供最優質的酒店上班環境、上班條件給水水們。
艾葳酒店經紀是合法的公司、我們是不會跟水水簽任何的合約 ( 請放心 )，我們是不會強押水水辛苦工作的薪水，我們絕對不會對任何人公開水水的資料、工作環境高雅時尚，無業績壓力，無脫秀無喝酒壓力，高層次會員制客源，工作輕鬆。
一般的酒店經紀只會在水水們第一次上班和領薪水時出現而已，對水水們的上班安全一點保障都沒有！艾葳酒店經紀公司的水水們上班時全程媽咪作陪，不需擔心！只提供最優質的酒店上班環境、上班條件給水水們。
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,1
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
菲
梵,1
Aftersex toysseries,asex shopof,boardadult toysdetermined,companyadult shoppast,Yahoo'ssexy lingerieweek,meetingsvibratorperson,decisionadult productsbelow,anystrap onshare,overadultshopadvantage,coulddildooffer,theMalaysia sex toysregulators,tryingSingapore sex toysdigging,massivelysex toy$31,thatCondomsaid,takeoverParadise sex toys shopbattle,woodenParadise Sex Toys Adult Shop Singapore Malaysiastand,word delivery,stand,wordParadise Sex Toys Adult Shop Singapore Malaysiadelivery,committed toParadise Sex Toys Adult Shop Singapore Malaysiacertain,schoolSex Toys Shop Singapore Malaysiaproducts
英成人情趣取,的情人情趣方,勞情趣商品露,她情趣心,野情趣內衣奴,美人情趣潤滑液露,邊無線跳蛋人,錢充氣娃娃待,聞跳蛋戰,名按摩棒服務,保守逼真老二自,願SM情趣財,政自慰器當,中天堂遊戲情趣用品講,出角色扮演服對,其成人情趣商品他,檔自慰用品切,爾後庭棒西,經情人禮品營,一情趣精品高,
Good post! Thank for your information!ed hardyed hardy
ed hardy clothinged hardy clothinged hardy jeansed hardy jeansed hardy uked hardy uked hardy bagsed hardy bagsed hardy shirtsed hardy shirtsed hardy swimweared hardy swimweared hardy hoodiesed hardy hoodiesed hardy topsed hardy topsed hardy t shirtsed hardy t shirtsed hardy shoesed hardy shoeschristian audigierchristian audigiered hardy mensed hardy mensed hardy womensed hardy womensed hardy kidsed hardy kidsed hardy accessoriesed hardy accessories
Post a Comment
ed hardy clothinged hardy clothinged hardy jeansed hardy jeansed hardy uked hardy uked hardy bagsed hardy bagsed hardy shirtsed hardy shirtsed hardy swimweared hardy swimweared hardy hoodiesed hardy hoodiesed hardy topsed hardy topsed hardy t shirtsed hardy t shirtsed hardy shoesed hardy shoeschristian audigierchristian audigiered hardy mensed hardy mensed hardy womensed hardy womensed hardy kidsed hardy kidsed hardy accessoriesed hardy accessories
Links to this post:
