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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.

YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com

All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.

Sunday, August 27, 2006

Thoughts on flavors and "better" when it comes to high end cameras 

Yesterday I drove up to Six Flags Fiesta Texas (in San Antonio) with Doreen and we rode roller coasters all day. (Hang on, this'll get HD relevant in a few paragraphs). The Big Three coasters there are the Poltergeist coaster, the Superman coaster, and The Rattler.

Poltergeist - the coaster equivalent of a taking crack just before skydiving into a hurricane - you start off with a bang, just about literally - you go from a dead stop to 60 in about 3 seconds - as an observer on the platform, it looks like some kind of unrealistic visual effect - by the time the last car is where the first was, it's going 50+ mph. As soon as you get up to speed (in 5 seconds of less), you IMMEDIATELY go into a fast 'n furious set of loops, turns, twirls, and overenders - if you look at the track from outside the ride, it looks like a big tangled ball of yarn. It doesn't take up much space, but loops in/under/over/through itself many times. The ride probably only lasts 45 seconds of so, but seems much longer, and you're in CONSTANT thrilling motion (as a tall guy, I kept feeling like the intertwined steel supports were constantly about to take my head off).

Superman - the theme on this one seems to be flight simulation, looping along like Superman would. The entire park is built into a valley, with the edges excavated out to make vertical walls. The Superman coaster's track loops and soars over the edge of the cliff several times, in big, clean, pure arcs and loops, fast and smooth. Oh, and to make it really feel like flight - you're sitting upright with your feet hanging free. We rode in the front car with our bare feet sticking out, it was GREAT - a thrilling sense of flight. I had on MP3 playing sunglasses, playing the theme from Kill Bill ("Battle without Honor or Humanity") and it was.....hmm...what's the phrase? Oh yeah - F*****G AWESOME.

For a finale for the day, we got on The Rattler, an older wooden coaster. It had a classic start where you leave the station and clank-clank-clank up a climb, and nothing else that day matched the sheer visceral intensity of the first dive and swoop it takes. We sat up front on that one, too, and I really got whey they call it The Rattler - it'll rattle your teeth out! Wooden coasters have a lot of give and shake, and we finished and Doreen asked what I thought of it - "It's like this" I said, holding up my half full water bottle in front of her, and then shook it vigorously into a froth - "that's my brain now." I later described it as "the epileptic indecisive coked up coal car ride." It wasn't clean, it wasn't pretty, but MAN it was fun! After the second time on it, I was ready to call it a day - too rattled. On my second ride through, though, I got to thinking about it - the first dive and big swoop were great, and the plunge into the dark tunnel (yes, actually through the rock) with an unexpected turn in total darkness were great, but other parts of the ride didn't measure up to that "maintain sufficient thrill level" mark - you're just going pretty fast and jerking around, but waiting for the next really cool thing to happen.

At the end of the day, I can't say which was "better" than the others - each presented a different kind of experience and thrill, each with their different pros and cons. Poltergeist was intense but brief, Superman was a consistent thrill without the peak experiences of the others (although footies al fresco into the oncoming breeze was a blast), the Rattler was shake-your-brains fun at first, but exhausting and kinda flat at times. And if I did have a favorite (hmm, now I'm leaning towards Superman), it is just my opinion, and yours may be different, based on what YOU consider to be the most fun (or even TYPE of fun). And also that I wouldn't want to pick one at the exclusion of the others - I'm glad I hit them all (and they hit me), and I wouldn't have wanted to miss any of those experiences - different flavors of speed and fun.

OK, so what does this have to do with cameras? This reminded me of some notes I wrote upon returning from my recent trip to LA where I saw a lot of cameras and vendors and facilities. Different vendors, different products, all try their best to be great for what they do - but everyone's definition of "best" or even "better" varies, depending on their goals, value systems, etc. Everyone's assumptions about what is most important probably varies, as does their ability to implement it as well as they'd like to. Also, in the end, some of it is going to break down to being a matter of flavors - you either like orange mango or you don't, or you like chocolate or vanilla better than the other and there's really no point in trying to argue you out of that position - it's just the way you feel about it. Bearing that in mind, read the rest below.

So I went and dug up my notes, written within a coupla days of my return from LA. I've tweaked a bit until I can get clearances from vendors (so I may supplement in the future, plus I have full writeups on Genesis and Dalsa coming):

Camera pros and cons, in no particular order:

Cameras, and products in general, are a reflection of the values and priorities of their makers. So the priorities of the makers come through in the product, either as a direct, intentional creation, or as a byproduct of the innate talents and capabilities of the companies and individuals producing them. After spending 10 days in LA visiting with camera makers, rental houses, DPs, colorists, etc., here are some of my thoughts and observations on some products out there:

Panavision has values of interoperability and compatibility with their extensive (and extensively field proven) range of accessories and gear while generating a very professional image in a self contained package.

The Dalsa Origin is the product of folks who make extremely good imaging sensors - so the camera is a no compromises image generation device. And it rocks at that task. The problem is, some compromises might be nice to have - 4K or the highway seems to be their unspoken mantra at this time. Smaller form factor, dual link HD-SDI, onboard recording capabilities, etc. would make this a much more flexibly capable system.

ARRI (whom I didn't visit with, just saw one at DGA Digital Day and chatted a bit with their guys there) made a digital version of one of their film cameras (the D-20), down to through the lens viewfinder with mechanical spinning shutter. Dalsa does that part too, giving a certain lovely characteristic to motion blur you don't get with non-shuttered imagers I've seen..

The Thomson/Grass Valley Viper (again, only saw at DGA Digital Day) is a very nice, technically astute camera with some clever details to the workflow - HD-SDI outputs with a log curve, it was AFAIK one of the first to do this. It is the product of a video technology company, and as such is has 3 2/3" CCDs and uses B4 mount lenses - so isn't quite the film camera replacement from a lens and DoF perspective.

Some pros and cons of the various cameras:


PANAVISION GENESIS:

Pros: shipping, multiple features already shot with it. Good looking image, FULL Panavision accessories integration and compatibility, HD deliverable (makes post easier), log curve (they call it Panalog, resets white to 70% and arcs/tapers it off above that level), compact form factor with recorder (integrates with SRW-1 without need or SRPC-1, which is built into camera). Also has dual link HD-SDI outputs if fully uncompressed is desired. Super 35mm sized image sensor. Panavision is a trusted name - see the long list of features already shooting on it. The name brand, and the quality that implies, clearly carries significant weight in Hollywood, as evinced by the list of projects already shot on it. Can record audio in sync with video. Single sensor CCD for cine lens compatibility.

Cons: 1080p is highest resolution, max frame rate is presently 50 fps, but can shoot variable frame rates, rental only from Panavision, limited availability (about 40 some odd worldwide right now). No mechanical shutter, and no through the lens viewfinding.

DALSA ORIGIN:

PROS: Shipping product. Extremely sharp images, extremely high resolution (4Kx2K, 2:1 aspect ratio), the only shipping 4K camera of the bunch. Also, extremely good dynamic range, perhaps the best of the shipping bunch from my personal osbservations. Super 35mm sized image sensor. Rotating mechanical shutter and through the lens viewfinding for film like motion rendering and DP familiar operation. Single sensor CCD (UPDATE - I had CMOS listed yesterday, that was incorrect, thanks to Patrick's quick eye to catch me on my mistake) for cine lens compatibility. If you want to go 4K, this is the one to beat. The workflow for 4K is also VERY well thought out, and the Codex device makes the much more manageable.

CONS: At present, it is BIG and unwieldy, and is something they need to work on. It can be handheld, as proven by some test footage I saw, but is a daunting beast to behold. But to my mind, the biggest detriment they face is the workflow - they shoot 4K, and they ONLY shoot 4K. At present, there is no HD-SDI out. You can only record 4K RAW Bayer pattern data out of the camera. Their currently recommended solution is to record to the Codex recorder, which is itself a model of flexibility and capability (more on it later, but it rocks). Which is fortunate for Dalsa, because they need all the flexibility then can get. 4K or the highway seems to be their unspoken credo. It would be nice to have options with this camera - such as 2K or ANY flavor of HD-SDI, or to at least have the option of any kind of compression for a smaller form factor. At present, if you wanted a Digibeta or SR copy, it would require some kind of processed output off of the Codex box. I feel they've overshot the market - but if they could shrink the form factor, add onboard recording, add 4K downsampled to 2K/HD/HD-SDI recording options, I think they'd have a real winner, more in line with the market's needs and desires.

The camera is also rental only - which helps for support (since the rates also includes support all through production into post production), but also means there is only one source to rent these from - Dalsa.

36fps max recording rate (camera capable of 50fps, but no recording solution capable of those speeds).

Dual sound audio - no provision for recording audio with picture, have to sync audio in post. Hmmph.

THOMSON/GRASS VALLEY VIPER:

PROS: good dynamic range (see Collateral or Miami Vice), nice color representation, can shoot 4:2:2 linear or 4:4:4 Filmstream mode (utterly uncorrected RGB output from sensor). HD workflow with LUTs, keeps the post more flexible and affordable than data or 2K. Can record audio in sync with video.

CONS: A video technology based device - 3 CCD design with a prism beam splitter, requires video style lenses, 30fps progressive max fps, 60 fields (half res) maximum frame rate. 2/3" not 35 or Super35 sized sensor...but that can be useful at times as well (Michael Mann liked it for Miami Vice). No mechanical viewfinder, and no through the lens viewfinding.

ARRI D-20:

PROS: from Arri, who has a strong rep for form factor, ergonomics, and accessories. 35mm or Super35mm sized image sensor (forget which), DOES have spinning mechanical shutter (has benefits for motion blur), and they are working on a direct data recording option as well (demoed at NAB). Can record audio in sync. Single sensor for cine lens compatibility.

Cons: HD resolution max, video frame rates, HD-SDI only recording, no onboard recording, no data recording as yet, how does offspeed work (recording and post extraction). Rental only.

SILICON IMAGING (no LA presence so didn't visit with, but drawing this from NAB visit and emails):

Pros: 2/3" sized image sensor (right?), detachable image block is tiny; very high quality, full raster, 10 bit highly efficient, relatively low data rate wavelet based codec (Cineform wavelet RAW codec). Very flexible frame rate modes 1-72 or so fps possible, and since disk recording it is cake to deal with offspeed in post. Mac support for codec expected this fall (maybe IBC?). Can record to the fully built up portable unit or just the image block and run a GigE cable back to a laptop or computer. With the (large) exception of Premiere Pro only editing, very indie viable workflow - low cost storage, low data rate native codec editing, affordable camera, etc.

Cons: you're married to Adobe Premiere for native codec editing right now. No HD-SDI recording option that I'm aware of. For editing or posting on non-WinXP environment,gotta export to other formats - is possible but cumbersome. Altasens sensor is decent but not outstanding, not in same league with Dalsa, ARRI, Panavision, or Red samples seen to date...then again, this is a very nearly shipping camera for $20K (w/o lenses), the price is entirely reasonable for the quality you get.

RED ONE:

Red One, if ships with specs as stated (YES unfair to compare shipping to unfinished, but let's just project forward a year and assume these are all still the same specs from everybody for the moment)

Pros: Can record up to 4520x2540 in data mode, purchaseable for $17,500 for the body (Viper is circa $80K I think), Super35mm sized sensor, windowable sensor, works with PL mount S35 and S16 to start with, Nikon and B4 mounts to follow for compatibility, 1-60 fps recording in 4K, 1-120fps recording in 2K w/S16 lenses, data, onboard, or HD-SDI recording options, records audio as well (at least 4 channels). Record RAW data to REDRAID, record Redcode full raster wavelet based codec to either solid state memory device or RedDrive devices (based on 2.5" SATA disk), or to any standard HD-SDI type device (if shooting HD resolutions). Shoot 720p, 1080p, 1080i, 2K, 4K, or 4.5K. Record (depending on format you're shooting) to to the above list. Purchaseable or rentable. I've seen some test images and....WOW.

Cons: New entrant, no working prototype seen or even test footage publicly screened as yet, unproven track record, brand new company and product. LONG way from shipping, working, proven reliable product. In terms of workflow...I can't think of a downside, knowing what I know. The final image quality, after compression and whatnot is still unknown, but I'd imagine it'll be possible to record images even better looking than what I saw (and remember, those were some of the very first tests) to a Codex or similar type device. Wait, that's not a con.

End notes.

OK, that'll give you something to chew on, I'm trying to get my world organized before I leave town for 2 weeks...

-mike
Comments:
I have to admit, I like the look and form of the Arri D-20, along with the mechanical shutter and optical viewfinder. I think those are two really strong points, but unfortunately I haven't seen anything done with it yet, and the price makes it hard to attain.
I also think the SI and Red look very promising, with a price that is much more attractive.
I think the price is very interesting because how it concerns certain filmmakers, making them, in a weird way, hard to compare, with the Viper floating somewhere in between.

Thanks for the write up and summary, Mike. Good Job.
 
As always, very informative and thoughtful. Thanks for the good work.

Two quibbles, small one first. For theatrical filmmaking, lack of synced recording is not a con; it's long been part of the standard workflow.

And while you do mention it for Arri, I'd quibble that one issue holds more weight. The "product values" of time-proven components and interoperability with standard tools has a lot of import in the movie industry. And Arri and Panavision have this in spades.

Low-budget indies -- sometimes due to neccesity, other times just inexperience -- tolerate problems and gear goofy-ness that is simply unacceptable for larger productions. The cost per production hour requires bullet proof tools. Shooting can not be held up by a bad component or needing to find an odd part or jury-rig non-standard gear, at least not without someone getting fired.

The "pros" highly value systems w/ standard tools, multiple redundancies, available replacements and responsive, expert suport. That's why Panavision is so much more than a "rental house."

Red specs are awesome and if the production model meets all the goals it will likely be a wonderous product. But even then, it will still remain to be seen if Red can become a professional, reliable and sustainable camera company that can serve serious movie makers.
 
Mark - thanks for the feedback, some counter thoughts to chew on -

1.) Sync sound - in this day and age, why NOT have synced sound? Definitely an added hassle in post. If you want to record separately, of course everybody can do that, but why NOT sync from the get go? Even though non-sync'd sound is SOP, I think it time for a new SOP - the option is good to have.

2.) Proven, reliable, uptime, all that - I absolutely agree with you in spades - downtime when just you doing EFP - your 10 minutes to fool with it. Even on my high industrial video projects, we would be burning $3000/hr or more sometimes (greenscreen stage, film camera, full crew, etc.) - so downtime costs LOTS more than the obvious costs.

High end pros absolutely need "right this goddam minute" support....but not everybody does. That cost (and signficant benefit!) is factored into Panavision's prices. For some production, however, it is overkill, and more than they need/can afford.

Horses for courses, as Fincher said at DGA Digital Day (referring to different cameras for different jobs).

-mike
 
the arri does more than HD res if you want:

from arri.com:
-----------------------------------------------
Sensor:
Large format custom designed CMOS sensor with Bayer mask
Accomodates all formats up to ANSI Super 35 aperture width (24.9 mm / 0.980'')
Active pixels: 3018 x 2200
Sensor is specified to be able to capture images up to 150 fps
Sealed with a low pass filter that has an antistatic and anti-reflective surface

Film Mode: Aperture size: accomodates all formats up to
ANSI Super 35 (24.9 mm / 0.980'')
Active sensor pixels: 3018 x 2200
Format: 4:3
Output:

Raw Bayer data with 12 bits bit depth
(Post processing necessary to derivefull color images)

Video Mode: Aperture size: Super 35 HDTV
Active sensor pixels: 2880 x 1620
Format: 16:9
Output:

1920 x 1080, YUV 4:2:2 10 bit (via single link HD-SDI)
1920 x 1080, RGB 4:4:4 10 bit (via dual link HD-SDI)
--------------------------------------------------

it's a lovely camera, albeit bit expensive for the starving indie ;)

as for sync sound: personally i prefer NOT to shoot with the sound guy tangled to the camera..
speeds up stuff on the set and it's not that much work in post... the sound guy will be much happier too
++ chris
 
Chris - thanks for tracking down those details. My understanding is that at NAB they showed some early prototype data capture stuff hooked up to some heavy iron box I can't think of after 10pm right now. BUT....they can't do data capture yet, dual link HD-SDI is all that is presently supported and fieldable. Maybe at IBC that will change, and I'd hope that by the time Red ships it most definitely will have changed. But HD res over HD-SDI, even in 4:4:4 10 bit RGB, is the best it can presently do.

Akin to the fact that my car makes 200 horsepower at the crank...but more like 160 at the wheels - which is how I drive it every day and use it.

Of course, if Red ships without REDRAID at first, the same critique can be launched at them...

-mike
 
oh - and as for sync sound - I'm all about choices - if on a film set you don't want it, don't use it. But having the option is nice. And for ENG/EFP guys, or doc stuff, it is a functional MUST have oftentimes.

-mike
 
mike,
i know a guy who was 1st AC for a shoot with a D-20 in spring and he said they shot RAW...

and i doubt anybody will ever use a genesis or D-20 for ENG or doc work ;)
++ chris
 
Hey Mike (or anyone that knows) - you mentioned having a mechanical shutter a few times as being good for matching film-like motion blur. Exactly what difference does this make? does that mean you can manually adjust the shutter angle to get variable amounts of blur? Does that mean you CAN'T adjust the shutter angle on the genesis or viper?

because of the HD films I've seen, I noticed no Bad motion blur video artefacting on say, Superman Returns, whereas every say 5th shot of Collateral looked smeary like video motion. (same with Once upon a time in Mexico - that was the last generation sony wasn't it?) Too much motion blur = video look from what I can judge - i.e. the shutter angle is wider than 180 degrees... Stuff I've seen shot on the D20 (a couple of commercials mainly) had no mblur issues but some clipping on hot whites...

So I'd love to know more about this subject matter because to me smeary video motion and highlight rolloff are the two last hurdles for HD. Above 1080p I really don't think resolution is as much of an issue...
 
Does anyone know the size of the aperature for this camera (D-20) when shooting in HD?

The camera notes say "Aperature: SUPER 35 HDTV" but I need numerical values for Horizontal and Vertical. I believe the ratio is 1.778, so I only need one aperature dimension to find the other.

In 4:3 film mode the active sensor pixels are 3018x2200 and the horizontal aperature is 0.980".

In 16:9 video mode (HD) the active sensor pixels are 2880x1620, so what would the aperature be?

Because the sensor pixels are less, would the horizontal aperature be less than 0.980?

Thanks in advance!!
 
I'm not sure how much time you spent with th e Viper camera but you've got a number of incorrect things written about it in your post above,
 
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