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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.
YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com
All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.
Tuesday, October 17, 2006
Silicon Color Acquired By Apple - what's it mean?
UPDATED WEDNESDAY - SEE BOTTOM
I'm bumping this up to the top of the queue as it has been substantially updated. There's more new articles below this one)
Apple has bought Final Touch and all of their variants of it - FinalTouch SD, Final Touch HD, and Final Touch 2K.
From the front of their web page:
We are pleased to announce that all Silicon Color technology and intellectual property, including FinalTouch color correction software, was recently sold to Apple. Maintenance agreements held by current Silicon Color customers will be honored by Apple until they expire.
UPDATE TUESDAY AFTERNOON: After a little time has passed and the initial excitement has worn off (shall we call it the Wishful Fanboy Syndrome?), here's my latest thoughts:
1.) Apple bought it for the IP primarily, and won't be interested in supporting it as a standalone app. I'm guessing they won't sell copies beyond a date very soon. No new support contracts, just support of the existing ones.
2.) As much as I'd like it to be of benefit for FCP 6, that I fervently hope they demo at NAB 2007 (if not ship), I don't think Apple could integrate it that fast into their development cycle, UNLESS this acquisition was made as a band-aid to get performance up by bringing in guys that have been focused on realtime GPU based color correction stuff for the past few years. With the acquisition of the IP, there MUST be some handoff assistance to the Apple guys from Silicon Color, so obviously Andrew and the guys will be spending some time in Cupertino. Oh wait! The IP was "recently sold to Apple" - we have no idea how long ago - so maybe things have been in the works for a while?
3.) I don't think the acquisition was made to squelch Final Touch, but Final Touch will be collateral damage - Apple isn't interested in supporting or selling software that presently only has around 300-500 users worldwide. They make tools for much bigger markets.
4.) Lots of interesting discussion in the Comments section below about the viability of Final Touch, apparently the Final Touch 2K folks are having a much easier time of it, as they aren't relying on the XML native media import.
OK, back to the article as it was originally written, but consider this update to supercede the below.
End Update
FACT:
Note that this does NOT say that Apple will be selling the product, nor that Apple will be incorporating the product into their line or rolling the technology into future Apple products, nor that Apple will even be selling the product in its current state.
SUPPOSITION:
My guess - the company is being bought to incorporate the IP, and the public result will be to squelch Final Touch - Final Cut Pro 6 has looooooong been rumored to take major advantage of the GPU. Perhaps some of Final Touch's realtime GPU based capabilities and expertise (and development personnel) will be wrapped into Apple's Pro Apps line, but not a whole lot I'd imagine.
Apple WOULD be interested in:
-FT's ability to do realtime color correction by shuttling data to/from the GPU and out an SDI/HD-SDI port
-FT's ability to do realtime "power window" type corrections (feathered shapes color correcting in realtime)
-FT's realtime secondary color correction capabilities
I could imagine Apple letting drop by the wayside:
-FT's user interface - very unApple
-FT's XML based import/export - if it is going to be integrated into Apple product line, it'd read the file formats natively I'd imagine
...but my gut says the competition is being pre-emptively taken off the market, well in advance of next NAB and Apple's new product line. Some goodies from the product will be assimilated into the whole (perhaps Apple is having trouble getting the RT performance they wanted, and this'll hasten development, by getting IP and staff?), or will just flat out be allowed to die on the vine for Apple's Greater Good (or Greater Market Share).
Final Touch ALWAYS had workflow difficulties that hampered it, and the UI is so non-Apple (not that that is an endemicly bad thing) that I don't see an Apple branded version of FT coming to market. Note that Shake got yanked in a vaguely similar way...while Shake is still being sold, it is effectively EOL'd (End of Life) with no future development planned.
So in the end, I think it is likely to be a net Bad Thing for indies, as I'm guessing (have asked but not received a reply yet) Final Touch is Not Long for This Earth. But that is purely conjecture until I hear more.
But I DO take this as a good sign that Good Things will come from Apple at next year's NAB...whether they'll ship at that time or merely be shown, I dunno...and maybe they don't, either.
-mike
UPDATE WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON: My emails are still unreturned where I asked if the product is still for sale, other signs indicate total communication blackout as well - maybe they are all on vacation? Or just not answering phones/email.
The Universal Binary version that was shown at IBC hasn't been released, and it MIGHT not ever be released - if so, is a convenient breakpoint for Apple to keep it a last generation's hardware solution, encouraging Intel based Mac owners to get whatever Apple is offering.
After not keeping up with FTHD for a while, turns out they have changed some things they do - it used to only render the "used" media on the timeline with zero handles, now it can render with handles...but you have to render to the same codec you brought in. This can be disastrously bad if you started with DV or HDV - no way you want to render back to that. So the fix is to Media Manager Recompress To before color correcting to the codec of choice (usually uncompressed). Handles or uncompressed is the choice in FTHD now - but I'd want both, and that SHOULD be doable. This shouldn't bother me this much, since I don't use the product regularly anymore and I think it is getting disco'd anyway, but it is a choice I don't like.
MacWorld weighs in with their opinion: Macworld: Editors' Notes: Addition through acquisition
THURSDAY UPDATE
I got a well reasoned comment from a reader (Stu Willis), and he made some good points that tweaked my thinking:
-after Shake got bought, there was a week or two of media blackout, as Apple now needs to step in and take over public commentary for the SC folks, so maybe it isn't as bleak as we thought
-putting high end color correction features into Final Cut might clutter it up - what if what was to be v3 just became another Apple Pro App? That's entirely possible as well I have to say
-if Apple WERE to have Final Touch 2K working correctly in its stable, they could tout end to end workflow - ingest, edit, conform, color correct, etc., and it would be marketable and believed in much more than Apple pointing to some small 3rd party developer and saying "yeah you can do it - go talk to those guys." Apple gives it credibility and respectability.
-so we should wait a few days/weeks and see what comes of this - maybe a UB version will see the light of day after all
-and if Apple does ship a version of it, I'm pretty damned sure the price on the 2K version (presently $25,000 US) will drop substantially - I'd picture $8K as maximum possible price, $3-5K more likely. I'd love to see FT2K for $5K and FTHD for $3K, with SD for $1K or less...or FT2K for $3K and FTHD/SD for $1K. Who knows.
-I'm well aware I'm all over the map on this, everything from "the sky is falling!" Chicken Little scenario where FT gets pulled from market and we see no benefit until 6-18 months in the form of a tweaked Final Cut color corrector; and on the other end of the spectrum Apple would release v3 as their own product at NAB (or at least announce/demo it). Could be anything, I'm just sharing all my thoughts on it. And in classic rumor site style, if any one of these things happen I could say I called it.
: )
-mikey
I'm bumping this up to the top of the queue as it has been substantially updated. There's more new articles below this one)
Apple has bought Final Touch and all of their variants of it - FinalTouch SD, Final Touch HD, and Final Touch 2K.
From the front of their web page:
We are pleased to announce that all Silicon Color technology and intellectual property, including FinalTouch color correction software, was recently sold to Apple. Maintenance agreements held by current Silicon Color customers will be honored by Apple until they expire.
UPDATE TUESDAY AFTERNOON: After a little time has passed and the initial excitement has worn off (shall we call it the Wishful Fanboy Syndrome?), here's my latest thoughts:
1.) Apple bought it for the IP primarily, and won't be interested in supporting it as a standalone app. I'm guessing they won't sell copies beyond a date very soon. No new support contracts, just support of the existing ones.
2.) As much as I'd like it to be of benefit for FCP 6, that I fervently hope they demo at NAB 2007 (if not ship), I don't think Apple could integrate it that fast into their development cycle, UNLESS this acquisition was made as a band-aid to get performance up by bringing in guys that have been focused on realtime GPU based color correction stuff for the past few years. With the acquisition of the IP, there MUST be some handoff assistance to the Apple guys from Silicon Color, so obviously Andrew and the guys will be spending some time in Cupertino. Oh wait! The IP was "recently sold to Apple" - we have no idea how long ago - so maybe things have been in the works for a while?
3.) I don't think the acquisition was made to squelch Final Touch, but Final Touch will be collateral damage - Apple isn't interested in supporting or selling software that presently only has around 300-500 users worldwide. They make tools for much bigger markets.
4.) Lots of interesting discussion in the Comments section below about the viability of Final Touch, apparently the Final Touch 2K folks are having a much easier time of it, as they aren't relying on the XML native media import.
OK, back to the article as it was originally written, but consider this update to supercede the below.
End Update
FACT:
Note that this does NOT say that Apple will be selling the product, nor that Apple will be incorporating the product into their line or rolling the technology into future Apple products, nor that Apple will even be selling the product in its current state.
SUPPOSITION:
My guess - the company is being bought to incorporate the IP, and the public result will be to squelch Final Touch - Final Cut Pro 6 has looooooong been rumored to take major advantage of the GPU. Perhaps some of Final Touch's realtime GPU based capabilities and expertise (and development personnel) will be wrapped into Apple's Pro Apps line, but not a whole lot I'd imagine.
Apple WOULD be interested in:
-FT's ability to do realtime color correction by shuttling data to/from the GPU and out an SDI/HD-SDI port
-FT's ability to do realtime "power window" type corrections (feathered shapes color correcting in realtime)
-FT's realtime secondary color correction capabilities
I could imagine Apple letting drop by the wayside:
-FT's user interface - very unApple
-FT's XML based import/export - if it is going to be integrated into Apple product line, it'd read the file formats natively I'd imagine
...but my gut says the competition is being pre-emptively taken off the market, well in advance of next NAB and Apple's new product line. Some goodies from the product will be assimilated into the whole (perhaps Apple is having trouble getting the RT performance they wanted, and this'll hasten development, by getting IP and staff?), or will just flat out be allowed to die on the vine for Apple's Greater Good (or Greater Market Share).
Final Touch ALWAYS had workflow difficulties that hampered it, and the UI is so non-Apple (not that that is an endemicly bad thing) that I don't see an Apple branded version of FT coming to market. Note that Shake got yanked in a vaguely similar way...while Shake is still being sold, it is effectively EOL'd (End of Life) with no future development planned.
So in the end, I think it is likely to be a net Bad Thing for indies, as I'm guessing (have asked but not received a reply yet) Final Touch is Not Long for This Earth. But that is purely conjecture until I hear more.
But I DO take this as a good sign that Good Things will come from Apple at next year's NAB...whether they'll ship at that time or merely be shown, I dunno...and maybe they don't, either.
-mike
UPDATE WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON: My emails are still unreturned where I asked if the product is still for sale, other signs indicate total communication blackout as well - maybe they are all on vacation? Or just not answering phones/email.
The Universal Binary version that was shown at IBC hasn't been released, and it MIGHT not ever be released - if so, is a convenient breakpoint for Apple to keep it a last generation's hardware solution, encouraging Intel based Mac owners to get whatever Apple is offering.
After not keeping up with FTHD for a while, turns out they have changed some things they do - it used to only render the "used" media on the timeline with zero handles, now it can render with handles...but you have to render to the same codec you brought in. This can be disastrously bad if you started with DV or HDV - no way you want to render back to that. So the fix is to Media Manager Recompress To before color correcting to the codec of choice (usually uncompressed). Handles or uncompressed is the choice in FTHD now - but I'd want both, and that SHOULD be doable. This shouldn't bother me this much, since I don't use the product regularly anymore and I think it is getting disco'd anyway, but it is a choice I don't like.
MacWorld weighs in with their opinion: Macworld: Editors' Notes: Addition through acquisition
THURSDAY UPDATE
I got a well reasoned comment from a reader (Stu Willis), and he made some good points that tweaked my thinking:
-after Shake got bought, there was a week or two of media blackout, as Apple now needs to step in and take over public commentary for the SC folks, so maybe it isn't as bleak as we thought
-putting high end color correction features into Final Cut might clutter it up - what if what was to be v3 just became another Apple Pro App? That's entirely possible as well I have to say
-if Apple WERE to have Final Touch 2K working correctly in its stable, they could tout end to end workflow - ingest, edit, conform, color correct, etc., and it would be marketable and believed in much more than Apple pointing to some small 3rd party developer and saying "yeah you can do it - go talk to those guys." Apple gives it credibility and respectability.
-so we should wait a few days/weeks and see what comes of this - maybe a UB version will see the light of day after all
-and if Apple does ship a version of it, I'm pretty damned sure the price on the 2K version (presently $25,000 US) will drop substantially - I'd picture $8K as maximum possible price, $3-5K more likely. I'd love to see FT2K for $5K and FTHD for $3K, with SD for $1K or less...or FT2K for $3K and FTHD/SD for $1K. Who knows.
-I'm well aware I'm all over the map on this, everything from "the sky is falling!" Chicken Little scenario where FT gets pulled from market and we see no benefit until 6-18 months in the form of a tweaked Final Cut color corrector; and on the other end of the spectrum Apple would release v3 as their own product at NAB (or at least announce/demo it). Could be anything, I'm just sharing all my thoughts on it. And in classic rumor site style, if any one of these things happen I could say I called it.
: )
-mikey
Comments:
seems like apple likes silicon :D
silicon grail first then silicon color.. we still have silicon graphics tumbling around ;)
silicon grail first then silicon color.. we still have silicon graphics tumbling around ;)
# posted by 
: Mon Oct 16, 04:06:00 PM CST
: Mon Oct 16, 04:06:00 PM CST
I think FCP needs a leg up on color correction and this could be what they're looking for to out perform Avid and Premiere.
It would be great in FCP to isolate the background wall, bring it down, and then motion track it to the image.
It would be great in FCP to isolate the background wall, bring it down, and then motion track it to the image.
# posted by : Mon Oct 16, 04:11:00 PM CST
: Mon Oct 16, 04:11:00 PM CST
Hmmmm, it strikes me as pretty un-Apple, from a corporate culture perspective, to buy a competitor in order to "squelch" it. Apple seems to generally take the approach of, "Ours is the best anyway, so who cares if someone else has theirs -- ours is Teh Shiny!" It's a total guess, but I would think Apple is buying IP (code) and personnel. They may sell FT in a form similar to what we're used to -- as they did with Shake -- and then end the product once the IP has been integrated into whatever Apple has planned. But that is 100% guesswork.
Does kind of add a little oomph to the idea that Apple is building some kind of super-compositing app. though, huh?
Does kind of add a little oomph to the idea that Apple is building some kind of super-compositing app. though, huh?
# posted by : Mon Oct 16, 07:05:00 PM CST
: Mon Oct 16, 07:05:00 PM CST
OK, clarification then - Apple bought it for the IP, but the results for the consumer is that FT is going to go away - so it is going to get squelched, even though that isn't the primary reason WHY - yeah, they want the IP, and I'd guess they also want an edge on the market too.
But the net result will be teh same - no further development of this product.
But the net result will be teh same - no further development of this product.
Shake is only EOL'ed in it's current incarnation, the whole program is supposed to become more GPU based and realtime, and it would be awesome if Final Touch was rolled into the New Shake, so you could do compositing and color correction. Do I smell something to go up against the Inferno?
Why apple is buying such a buggy product...
Although if they manage to seperate the wheat form the chaff... and incorporate it into FCP...
FCP may have a true adrenaline/nitrous killer.
Although if they manage to seperate the wheat form the chaff... and incorporate it into FCP...
FCP may have a true adrenaline/nitrous killer.
# posted by : Mon Oct 16, 09:21:00 PM CST
: Mon Oct 16, 09:21:00 PM CST
last anonymous - I think you're getting closer to the mark.
Shake is EOL'd in that there won't be a Shake 5, it'll be something else, and based on Shake's current pricing, I'm doubting they plan on offering inexpensive upgrades.
I've written in the past about Shake's demise and what it bodes for the future - check the archives.
-mike
Shake is EOL'd in that there won't be a Shake 5, it'll be something else, and based on Shake's current pricing, I'm doubting they plan on offering inexpensive upgrades.
I've written in the past about Shake's demise and what it bodes for the future - check the archives.
-mike
oops - forgot to say - Apple wants a mainstream product that appeals to the widest possible audience.
Adrenaline/Nitrous - high end products, not everybody needs/can use that kind of power, bit depth, etc.
Apple needs to solve the multi-format on a timeline stuff first, THEN go after things like handling log footage, 10 bit RGB, etc.
-mike
Adrenaline/Nitrous - high end products, not everybody needs/can use that kind of power, bit depth, etc.
Apple needs to solve the multi-format on a timeline stuff first, THEN go after things like handling log footage, 10 bit RGB, etc.
-mike
well from my understanding from being a long time shake user (god I think it bean 6 years now). The application has to be built from the ground up to support 32 bit FP. From there all the subsequent color conversions are generally easier, as mathmatically you just round it sooner.
I would be rather unhappy if final cut 6 doesn't support the ability to do a final conform and CC at higher bit depth. When I output a down rezzed copy I want the anti aliasing algorithm to take into account that bit depth as it combines pixels to provide a clean non jagged master. I think jannards recent posting of his 1k RED footage clearly shows how badly the quicktime engine does this.
In any case I have faith in the Apple teams.Their when its done attitude definatly speaks more to the quality of their work, than say premiere's feature constipation.
Jeff Brue
3D TD
I would be rather unhappy if final cut 6 doesn't support the ability to do a final conform and CC at higher bit depth. When I output a down rezzed copy I want the anti aliasing algorithm to take into account that bit depth as it combines pixels to provide a clean non jagged master. I think jannards recent posting of his 1k RED footage clearly shows how badly the quicktime engine does this.
In any case I have faith in the Apple teams.Their when its done attitude definatly speaks more to the quality of their work, than say premiere's feature constipation.
Jeff Brue
3D TD
# posted by : Mon Oct 16, 11:57:00 PM CST
: Mon Oct 16, 11:57:00 PM CST
I hate to ask this mike but really, who cares about cutting multi formats on one timeline? It falls into the same category as real time star wipes in terms of real usefulness but it seems to be the kind of thing that much noise is made about and it pushes important editing tools to the background.
Knickers in a twist?
Apple needs high-end products to run on its now high-end hardware. If Apple want to be in the computer market then they need to ship boxes and that isn't going to happen relying on 3rd party software sales to do it.
Apple's destops sell laptops, sell ipods, sell laptops, sell desktops.
What is so difficult to believe that Apple may produce a product or group of products to compete with FFI or Nitris? Apple finally have the hardware to make it possible....
Delete the post if you like as it doesn't conform to Mikethink...
Apple needs high-end products to run on its now high-end hardware. If Apple want to be in the computer market then they need to ship boxes and that isn't going to happen relying on 3rd party software sales to do it.
Apple's destops sell laptops, sell ipods, sell laptops, sell desktops.
What is so difficult to believe that Apple may produce a product or group of products to compete with FFI or Nitris? Apple finally have the hardware to make it possible....
Delete the post if you like as it doesn't conform to Mikethink...
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 02:04:00 AM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 02:04:00 AM CST
So in the end, I think it is likely to be a net Bad Thing for indies
Well, honestly, FinalTouch itself has been a Bad Thing for indies like me. I can't count the hours lost trying to figure out how to work around the ever changing bugs/features with every Release candidate or update. But I won't go into that now, as I think this is great news!
I sincerely hope that Apple will take all the good parts and leave the bad parts behind. I recently found out that the color algorithms Silicon Color uses are most likely incorrect!
Although Apple developers haven't quite nailed their own algorithms either! (like you mentioned on 10-bit processing). I hope they get some smart guys to fix all this.
I do find it interesting that Apple has acquired the whole product line, including FinalTouch 2K. It will be interesting to see if they will enable 2K editing in FCP. This wouldn't be in line with that Apple's Greater Good (or Greater Market Share) though.
Well, honestly, FinalTouch itself has been a Bad Thing for indies like me. I can't count the hours lost trying to figure out how to work around the ever changing bugs/features with every Release candidate or update. But I won't go into that now, as I think this is great news!
I sincerely hope that Apple will take all the good parts and leave the bad parts behind. I recently found out that the color algorithms Silicon Color uses are most likely incorrect!
Although Apple developers haven't quite nailed their own algorithms either! (like you mentioned on 10-bit processing). I hope they get some smart guys to fix all this.
I do find it interesting that Apple has acquired the whole product line, including FinalTouch 2K. It will be interesting to see if they will enable 2K editing in FCP. This wouldn't be in line with that Apple's Greater Good (or Greater Market Share) though.
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 03:16:00 AM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 03:16:00 AM CST
To toby:
I don't know where your source footage comes from, but we receive footage from various formats for any given project, and it's a big pain that you have to convert them all (hours fo footage) to one format before you can start editing.
So I'm looking forward very much to the realtime multi format feature.
I don't know where your source footage comes from, but we receive footage from various formats for any given project, and it's a big pain that you have to convert them all (hours fo footage) to one format before you can start editing.
So I'm looking forward very much to the realtime multi format feature.
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 03:55:00 AM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 03:55:00 AM CST
Yea I have to say the multi-format in one timeline thing is important to me too, and to many people who would make the switch from AVID if FCP could do this.
Yes SHAKE is EOL'd, but Apple is making something new to replace it, and I am sure they will do the same with FinalTouch. I would love for them to incorporate some of the features into FCP 6 and then include more of the high end features into their Shake replacement. I don't see them just tossing the technology that they bought.
Sure the interface is also very unapple, but so was Shake, and they released new versions of shake, and I would love to see them improve on it and make it a bit more apple.
I really don't see this as a bad thing except maybe in the short term.
Really I would love to see Apple come out with some sort of hardware accelerator that sped up all of their video apps, from Final Cut, Motion, whatever replaces Shake and whatever replaces Final Touch, and allowes multi-formats in one timeline.
Yes SHAKE is EOL'd, but Apple is making something new to replace it, and I am sure they will do the same with FinalTouch. I would love for them to incorporate some of the features into FCP 6 and then include more of the high end features into their Shake replacement. I don't see them just tossing the technology that they bought.
Sure the interface is also very unapple, but so was Shake, and they released new versions of shake, and I would love to see them improve on it and make it a bit more apple.
I really don't see this as a bad thing except maybe in the short term.
Really I would love to see Apple come out with some sort of hardware accelerator that sped up all of their video apps, from Final Cut, Motion, whatever replaces Shake and whatever replaces Final Touch, and allowes multi-formats in one timeline.
It's fun so much people think FT was unusable, because I graded about 10 commercials, 3 shorts films, a feature film and some documentaries with it without major problems.
Using the right LUT, my return to 35mm has always been what I expected (meaning into our tolerance for digital to film transfert), and the commercial I graded where showing correctly when I caught them on broadcasting using a proper CCIR601 LUT.
But I used the 2K verison and used DPX sequences even for SD grading. The crappy thing in FTHD was Quicktime, not FT...
Using the right LUT, my return to 35mm has always been what I expected (meaning into our tolerance for digital to film transfert), and the commercial I graded where showing correctly when I caught them on broadcasting using a proper CCIR601 LUT.
But I used the 2K verison and used DPX sequences even for SD grading. The crappy thing in FTHD was Quicktime, not FT...
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 06:58:00 AM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 06:58:00 AM CST
Jean-Luc (Gason? I presume). We've met briefly at the IBC. I was with the other tall Dutch guy.
I'm not saying that FT is, or was unusable, but as you know, I've had so many workflow and color accuracy problems, it's not funny anymore. This might all be due to differences in the hardware setup and that I am using Quicktime and not DPX's. But that _should_ not be an issue.
I did grade 2 feature films, 5 short films, 3 video clips and 1 commercial with it, all with acceptable results in the end. But not without problems.
The problem is that Silicon Color doesn't want to recommend a certain hardware setup, probably because they don't want to scare away people. I had much rather that they would tell us what setup works perfectly and we'll buy it.
I'm not saying that FT is, or was unusable, but as you know, I've had so many workflow and color accuracy problems, it's not funny anymore. This might all be due to differences in the hardware setup and that I am using Quicktime and not DPX's. But that _should_ not be an issue.
I did grade 2 feature films, 5 short films, 3 video clips and 1 commercial with it, all with acceptable results in the end. But not without problems.
The problem is that Silicon Color doesn't want to recommend a certain hardware setup, probably because they don't want to scare away people. I had much rather that they would tell us what setup works perfectly and we'll buy it.
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 08:35:00 AM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 08:35:00 AM CST
Toby - lots of folks get lots of footage in lots of formats, and as others here have said, it's a pain to work with. Other products (like some Avids) can handle different frame sizes in realtime, and it is a MAJOR workflow improvement.
As for Final Touch, I worked with it daily from last September though January or so of this year, and while the color correction tools are excellent, I had huge, major problems with workflow. Checking in with some users this summer in LA, they were still having similar issues. And there were issues with color as well - black levels, illegal values, inaccurate/inconsistent/confusing monitoring, etc.
Anonymouse - as I've said in the past, be polite, be constructive, and your comments are always welcome. You know the rules, you just abuse them more than anyone else here. Frankly, I would probably cut you more slack if you weren't anonymous.
marijn - I feel you pain....the conform into and back from FTHD was the killer for me. I'd spend more time futzing with the FCP timeline and doing conform matchback tests trying to get it all working than the colorist spent on the project, and that by far...that's massively out of whack.
-mike
As for Final Touch, I worked with it daily from last September though January or so of this year, and while the color correction tools are excellent, I had huge, major problems with workflow. Checking in with some users this summer in LA, they were still having similar issues. And there were issues with color as well - black levels, illegal values, inaccurate/inconsistent/confusing monitoring, etc.
Anonymouse - as I've said in the past, be polite, be constructive, and your comments are always welcome. You know the rules, you just abuse them more than anyone else here. Frankly, I would probably cut you more slack if you weren't anonymous.
marijn - I feel you pain....the conform into and back from FTHD was the killer for me. I'd spend more time futzing with the FCP timeline and doing conform matchback tests trying to get it all working than the colorist spent on the project, and that by far...that's massively out of whack.
-mike
He, Hi Marijn :)
While I do understand your pain, I also think most of the FT problems comes from the fact they weren't hable to control the hardware (as Apple as done so many changes in a year) and Apple's policy of secret concerning their software and hardware. Now that FT is part of internal development, I hope they'll have access to all the internal Apple knowledge, making things easier for them and more accurate for us...
As I told you at IBC, most of the problems surely come from Quicktime, which is the weakest link in all this process.
For info, and color accuracy, Shake, even being Apple internal development, still have gamma shift issues with files coming from FCP. At some point, I assure you that if you get rid of all that quicktime crap and FCP needs, Final Touch is a great color correction software. It was almost as good as Lustre except for the timeline, Lustre which by the way doesn't support Quicktime and FCP XML, that can explain why they don't have the same problems we FT users had.
Having spoken a lot with Andrew Bryant, the lead programmer on FT, most of their problem where Apple related. Would it be being forced to support Nvidia in a rush because sundenlly Apple doens't use ATI chips anymore, use of a PCI Express architecture in place of the PCIX or switching to Intel procs, Silicon Color always had the informations the same time we did : when it was too late to plan things properly and urgent to support new hardware or they would not sell anymore, as Apple policy is to stop the selling of old hardware once the new one is released. So that left Silicon Color in the position of having to support new hardware without the time to stabilize their apps before. From this comes all our stresses and bugs.
Hopefully for me, the 2K DPX workflow was less wounded by those changes. But think that for FCP or Quicktime support, how many times did we see an update to Quicktime appear from nowhere ? Well, Silicon Color had to face that at the same time we did, with the everlasting stress of "what will Apple have changed this time, and where would they have documented this, if they did"
They weren't hable to tell us a stable hardware setup because their has been none at Apple, who changed architecture every 6 month lately.
Now they are part of the internal team, we can hope they'll at last have access to info and hardware BEFORE they are released, allowing them to plan thing correctly and at least be hable to have a clear view for their development.
Also, I don't make any judgement in this question, but I've always been amazed that people avoided workarounds with FT and FCP. I mean, XML workflow as always been a pain, why didn't people use the EDL workflow ? It didn't recognize the fades, ok, but most of a program is cut anyway, and I used the same trick we used on Da Vinci or Poggle, I render my film as a big sequence or quicktime, then I create an EDL which consider fades between 2 shots as 1 event in the EDL and use keyframe to fade the color correction...
When I explained that on Silicon Color webboard, I almost was hanged by the angry mob yelling "It is not supposed to work that way!". Well, maybe someone dreamed of a perfect workflow, but using that workflow I never had any surprises and easily got the project out of FT.
Enough blabling ;)
Marijn, if you ever got to Brussels, you're welcome here, let's have some beer and discuss :)
Jean-Luc
While I do understand your pain, I also think most of the FT problems comes from the fact they weren't hable to control the hardware (as Apple as done so many changes in a year) and Apple's policy of secret concerning their software and hardware. Now that FT is part of internal development, I hope they'll have access to all the internal Apple knowledge, making things easier for them and more accurate for us...
As I told you at IBC, most of the problems surely come from Quicktime, which is the weakest link in all this process.
For info, and color accuracy, Shake, even being Apple internal development, still have gamma shift issues with files coming from FCP. At some point, I assure you that if you get rid of all that quicktime crap and FCP needs, Final Touch is a great color correction software. It was almost as good as Lustre except for the timeline, Lustre which by the way doesn't support Quicktime and FCP XML, that can explain why they don't have the same problems we FT users had.
Having spoken a lot with Andrew Bryant, the lead programmer on FT, most of their problem where Apple related. Would it be being forced to support Nvidia in a rush because sundenlly Apple doens't use ATI chips anymore, use of a PCI Express architecture in place of the PCIX or switching to Intel procs, Silicon Color always had the informations the same time we did : when it was too late to plan things properly and urgent to support new hardware or they would not sell anymore, as Apple policy is to stop the selling of old hardware once the new one is released. So that left Silicon Color in the position of having to support new hardware without the time to stabilize their apps before. From this comes all our stresses and bugs.
Hopefully for me, the 2K DPX workflow was less wounded by those changes. But think that for FCP or Quicktime support, how many times did we see an update to Quicktime appear from nowhere ? Well, Silicon Color had to face that at the same time we did, with the everlasting stress of "what will Apple have changed this time, and where would they have documented this, if they did"
They weren't hable to tell us a stable hardware setup because their has been none at Apple, who changed architecture every 6 month lately.
Now they are part of the internal team, we can hope they'll at last have access to info and hardware BEFORE they are released, allowing them to plan thing correctly and at least be hable to have a clear view for their development.
Also, I don't make any judgement in this question, but I've always been amazed that people avoided workarounds with FT and FCP. I mean, XML workflow as always been a pain, why didn't people use the EDL workflow ? It didn't recognize the fades, ok, but most of a program is cut anyway, and I used the same trick we used on Da Vinci or Poggle, I render my film as a big sequence or quicktime, then I create an EDL which consider fades between 2 shots as 1 event in the EDL and use keyframe to fade the color correction...
When I explained that on Silicon Color webboard, I almost was hanged by the angry mob yelling "It is not supposed to work that way!". Well, maybe someone dreamed of a perfect workflow, but using that workflow I never had any surprises and easily got the project out of FT.
Enough blabling ;)
Marijn, if you ever got to Brussels, you're welcome here, let's have some beer and discuss :)
Jean-Luc
Jean Luc - I completely agree for your reasoning as to WHY Final Touch had so many issues and had to play catchup, but as a consumer/user/buyer, THAT'S NOT MY PROBLEM.
We need products that work, and Final Touch had a host of challenges that made it not as good of a solution as it needed to be.
The hardware issues weren't as big of a concern for me - it was the software issues. The EDL workflow either didn't exist or wasn't documented for the months that I was using the software (granted, over 6 months ago), the XML was a joke if the client's project had any retimed shots (which they ALWAYS did), and the manual slice & dice approach we used was time consuming and had other issues as well. The EDL approach also means your titles are baked in, a major problem to either color around (bad) or the timeline has to be fooled with to separate the text from picture (incredibly time consuming and non-automatable).
I can't speak to the recent development since I haven't been using it, but I have been hearing complaints from high end, experienced facilities about inaccurate monitoring and scope issues.
In any case, I see no signs that the product is going to be carried forward, and my email hasn't been responded to in nearly 24 hours (I'm sure they are swamped right now).
Somebody was optimistic that Apple would make it all better going forward....I don't think there is going to be a "going forward" - note that they say support contracts will be honored until they expire, but no mention is made as to whether the software can even still be purchased, nor is it stated that support contracts can be purchased or extended....smells like the product is being pulled from the market, and will never get the chance to be the cool solution it coulda/shoulda been.
Drat.
-mike
We need products that work, and Final Touch had a host of challenges that made it not as good of a solution as it needed to be.
The hardware issues weren't as big of a concern for me - it was the software issues. The EDL workflow either didn't exist or wasn't documented for the months that I was using the software (granted, over 6 months ago), the XML was a joke if the client's project had any retimed shots (which they ALWAYS did), and the manual slice & dice approach we used was time consuming and had other issues as well. The EDL approach also means your titles are baked in, a major problem to either color around (bad) or the timeline has to be fooled with to separate the text from picture (incredibly time consuming and non-automatable).
I can't speak to the recent development since I haven't been using it, but I have been hearing complaints from high end, experienced facilities about inaccurate monitoring and scope issues.
In any case, I see no signs that the product is going to be carried forward, and my email hasn't been responded to in nearly 24 hours (I'm sure they are swamped right now).
Somebody was optimistic that Apple would make it all better going forward....I don't think there is going to be a "going forward" - note that they say support contracts will be honored until they expire, but no mention is made as to whether the software can even still be purchased, nor is it stated that support contracts can be purchased or extended....smells like the product is being pulled from the market, and will never get the chance to be the cool solution it coulda/shoulda been.
Drat.
-mike
Hi Mike,
The EDL workflow was in since I began using the soft 1 and a half year ago.
As for monitoring issues, using a good LUT avoided me most of them, because I always uses LUT, even on a GRADE A Sony monitor, no monitor is ever perfect, and there aren't 2 CRT tubes that display the same color response in the world, even if you buy 2 that were manufactured side by side.
But most of the people on the FT board doens't even knew what a LUT was... And when I told them to use one, I got "in video everything is about believing a well calibrated monitor, we don't need no friggin LUT" for an answer... I stopped arguing.
For the baked text and supers, well, I never graded a program with it's supers, our workflow here is offline, confo on a Discreet Smoke, DPX export for grading, DPX grading, import back into Smoke and then only the titling begins.
If they have a lot of titling to do, then they do it on a graphic track on the ungraded online while I grade, once the graded output is rendered they just replace the track beneath the graphic track and it's done.
Time effect are always rendered before exporting, and our online editor can quickly edit his EDL in smoke to make time effect appear as the final timing event in the cutlist I use for Final Touch.
I mean, I used Final Touch with the same workflow we used Poggle or Da Vinci and never stomped into an unbearable problem.
And I'm not the only one, I've spoken with Bob Sliga or Teague Cowley at IBC, booth using the same workflow as I did, and we never got any major problems.
I think one of the things that made FT seems bad is that users wanted tu use their bad Apple Users habits ;-)
If you are rigorous in your workflow, like for exemple, never use anything beside letter and numbers to name your file and shots (try to import a file with a / in the name on a Smoke or a Flame), if in your workflow you prepared everything, and know that you wan't begin to grade before your edit is finished (and I mean FINISHED), then know that titling and motion graphics comes after the grading. If you respect the standard workflow and not the 'Apple I can do everything I want the way I want" workflow, FT was far from being a pain...
As for the continuation of FT. Well, I have no info from Silicon Color, my e-mails are dead letters, either they all passed out drunk with naked chicks around the pool, either it smells bad...
But if you want a message of hope, lately someone told me Apple France was asking question about the CP 200 panels, how it was working, if it was working with Final Cut, who manufactured those...
Maybe we'll see something before NAB... ButI'm almost sure we'll at least see something AT NAB...
Jean-Luc
The EDL workflow was in since I began using the soft 1 and a half year ago.
As for monitoring issues, using a good LUT avoided me most of them, because I always uses LUT, even on a GRADE A Sony monitor, no monitor is ever perfect, and there aren't 2 CRT tubes that display the same color response in the world, even if you buy 2 that were manufactured side by side.
But most of the people on the FT board doens't even knew what a LUT was... And when I told them to use one, I got "in video everything is about believing a well calibrated monitor, we don't need no friggin LUT" for an answer... I stopped arguing.
For the baked text and supers, well, I never graded a program with it's supers, our workflow here is offline, confo on a Discreet Smoke, DPX export for grading, DPX grading, import back into Smoke and then only the titling begins.
If they have a lot of titling to do, then they do it on a graphic track on the ungraded online while I grade, once the graded output is rendered they just replace the track beneath the graphic track and it's done.
Time effect are always rendered before exporting, and our online editor can quickly edit his EDL in smoke to make time effect appear as the final timing event in the cutlist I use for Final Touch.
I mean, I used Final Touch with the same workflow we used Poggle or Da Vinci and never stomped into an unbearable problem.
And I'm not the only one, I've spoken with Bob Sliga or Teague Cowley at IBC, booth using the same workflow as I did, and we never got any major problems.
I think one of the things that made FT seems bad is that users wanted tu use their bad Apple Users habits ;-)
If you are rigorous in your workflow, like for exemple, never use anything beside letter and numbers to name your file and shots (try to import a file with a / in the name on a Smoke or a Flame), if in your workflow you prepared everything, and know that you wan't begin to grade before your edit is finished (and I mean FINISHED), then know that titling and motion graphics comes after the grading. If you respect the standard workflow and not the 'Apple I can do everything I want the way I want" workflow, FT was far from being a pain...
As for the continuation of FT. Well, I have no info from Silicon Color, my e-mails are dead letters, either they all passed out drunk with naked chicks around the pool, either it smells bad...
But if you want a message of hope, lately someone told me Apple France was asking question about the CP 200 panels, how it was working, if it was working with Final Cut, who manufactured those...
Maybe we'll see something before NAB... ButI'm almost sure we'll at least see something AT NAB...
Jean-Luc
Jean Luc - ah - different markets/products/workflows is the reason for our different experiences I would think.
The market I was trying to address was better color correction for smaller projects - people coming in with their Final Cut projects, all laced full of titles, retimed shots, etc.. Since they came to us for color correction, no control over the project files, which led to most of my headache/heartache with the product.
We did a number of documentary projects as well, which had titling moreso than a typical narrative project.
As for "bad Apple habits" - be careful of how high that horse is that you're sitting on!
; )
We couldn't control our projects, you can, and I think that makes an ENORMOUS difference in how smoothly projects go.
Having access to a Smoke or Flame also breaks the budget for a lot of the stuff I was working on.
This is, after all, HD for Indies...
: )
But if you've got it working reliably, more power to you!
-mike
The market I was trying to address was better color correction for smaller projects - people coming in with their Final Cut projects, all laced full of titles, retimed shots, etc.. Since they came to us for color correction, no control over the project files, which led to most of my headache/heartache with the product.
We did a number of documentary projects as well, which had titling moreso than a typical narrative project.
As for "bad Apple habits" - be careful of how high that horse is that you're sitting on!
; )
We couldn't control our projects, you can, and I think that makes an ENORMOUS difference in how smoothly projects go.
Having access to a Smoke or Flame also breaks the budget for a lot of the stuff I was working on.
This is, after all, HD for Indies...
: )
But if you've got it working reliably, more power to you!
-mike
Mike, the problem with you reasoning is timing. Of course Apple may decide to skip another NAB with FCP. It is the company that kept as on 500 MHz CPU for 18 month and is behind their competition with Merom notebook. But if FCP 6 is announced at NAB and shipping in June there is no time to incorporate whatever IP Apple just bought. It is pretty much in late beta right now.
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 11:05:00 AM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 11:05:00 AM CST
mishka - we're still 6 months from NAB...I'd be inclined to agree it is in beta, or near beta, but I wouldn't think late beta.
Devil's Advocate - what if they are panicking and can't get it right and need the help?
Yeah..you're right...much as I'd like it to get folded in, 6 months is way too fast.
-mike
Devil's Advocate - what if they are panicking and can't get it right and need the help?
Yeah..you're right...much as I'd like it to get folded in, 6 months is way too fast.
-mike
>be careful of how high that horse is that you're sitting on!
Don't worry Mike, it's more a Shetland Pony than a horse :)
No, what I ment was that we see a lot of project edited in a way that lacks a lot of method, and most of it comes from FCP users (maybe because the soft is much more professional than Premiere was so people comes more easilly with FCP project than they were with Premiere projects).
It's not even about saying there are "the good educated editors" and "the kiddies that works with FCP", not at all, just that I see more and more people not caring about methodic work because "it works their way anyway, why bother, we are in the 21th century, men has gone to the moon, blablabla..."
And I've seen very humble editors, who learned editing on 35mm Steinbeck 30 years ago, working now in Final Cut Pro, and you know, I never had any problem with their EDL's, and when I ask them to colapse their editing on a single track and bake the speed effect, they don't try to convince me I'm wrong.
And they could, they are twice my age, they most probably edited more feature I will ever see in my entire live, some of them worked on films who won the "Palme d'Or", but they still are open, working with method, accepting that there are technical limitation and will make a religion to follow what the post prod guys asked them as a workflow to insure everything went smoothly...
Now who is sitting on a high horse? :-)
So yes, I sometime have a really hard time when a guys who is editing on FCP since a year and learned editing on a DVD is telling me I'm wrong and stupid when I ask them to follow a particular workflow, while some of the most famous editors in my country will ask us how to do it and I fell soo pretencious telling them how we would like them to work...
No generality here, I've met first time editors who wanted to learn to do thing the right way and asked us how to do it, we woked hand in hand, learning from each other, as they can learn us things also and we stay open. And I've met "old" editors that were such a pain to work...
To get back to Final Touch, at IBC I've met Roland and drank some beers with him. Everytime I was asking something about version 3, I got this answer :
"There is soooo much more to version 3, but I can't tell right now, be patient".
It was only 1,5 month ago, so most probably by that time Apple was already in business with them... So maybe they are working on version 3 since more time that we think, and those 2.5 and 2.6 where "quick fixes" while working on the new version.
Time will tell, but I want to believe :)
Don't worry Mike, it's more a Shetland Pony than a horse :)
No, what I ment was that we see a lot of project edited in a way that lacks a lot of method, and most of it comes from FCP users (maybe because the soft is much more professional than Premiere was so people comes more easilly with FCP project than they were with Premiere projects).
It's not even about saying there are "the good educated editors" and "the kiddies that works with FCP", not at all, just that I see more and more people not caring about methodic work because "it works their way anyway, why bother, we are in the 21th century, men has gone to the moon, blablabla..."
And I've seen very humble editors, who learned editing on 35mm Steinbeck 30 years ago, working now in Final Cut Pro, and you know, I never had any problem with their EDL's, and when I ask them to colapse their editing on a single track and bake the speed effect, they don't try to convince me I'm wrong.
And they could, they are twice my age, they most probably edited more feature I will ever see in my entire live, some of them worked on films who won the "Palme d'Or", but they still are open, working with method, accepting that there are technical limitation and will make a religion to follow what the post prod guys asked them as a workflow to insure everything went smoothly...
Now who is sitting on a high horse? :-)
So yes, I sometime have a really hard time when a guys who is editing on FCP since a year and learned editing on a DVD is telling me I'm wrong and stupid when I ask them to follow a particular workflow, while some of the most famous editors in my country will ask us how to do it and I fell soo pretencious telling them how we would like them to work...
No generality here, I've met first time editors who wanted to learn to do thing the right way and asked us how to do it, we woked hand in hand, learning from each other, as they can learn us things also and we stay open. And I've met "old" editors that were such a pain to work...
To get back to Final Touch, at IBC I've met Roland and drank some beers with him. Everytime I was asking something about version 3, I got this answer :
"There is soooo much more to version 3, but I can't tell right now, be patient".
It was only 1,5 month ago, so most probably by that time Apple was already in business with them... So maybe they are working on version 3 since more time that we think, and those 2.5 and 2.6 where "quick fixes" while working on the new version.
Time will tell, but I want to believe :)
Mike,
I think your wrong about Apples intentions.
I suspect Apple do what a high end product to compete with the Inferno et al. Why else have 3rd party dealers who specialise in selling XSAN networks to broadcasters and then shout about it. They are pushin FCP into broadcasters left right and centre (again then shout about it on the web site) the IP behind FT would give FCP the kind of power other system would have. As for Shake, as I understand it, its one of the industry standard products of its kind, not only does it drive significant software sales but massive hardware sales - the kind Apple like in that they upgrade when the fast machines become available because they need grunt power which is even better for Apple. If its in the top facilities and the top editors are using it, they are going to use at home - hardware sales increase etc. Its win win!
There's also one thing about Shake and FCP - getting it used in broadcasters and film studios really gives Apple high profile Kudos and the kind of publicity money can't buy!
I think your wrong about Apples intentions.
I suspect Apple do what a high end product to compete with the Inferno et al. Why else have 3rd party dealers who specialise in selling XSAN networks to broadcasters and then shout about it. They are pushin FCP into broadcasters left right and centre (again then shout about it on the web site) the IP behind FT would give FCP the kind of power other system would have. As for Shake, as I understand it, its one of the industry standard products of its kind, not only does it drive significant software sales but massive hardware sales - the kind Apple like in that they upgrade when the fast machines become available because they need grunt power which is even better for Apple. If its in the top facilities and the top editors are using it, they are going to use at home - hardware sales increase etc. Its win win!
There's also one thing about Shake and FCP - getting it used in broadcasters and film studios really gives Apple high profile Kudos and the kind of publicity money can't buy!
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 01:22:00 PM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 01:22:00 PM CST
Michael - see the revised stuff at top - I think Apple wants the tech and will integrate it, I just don't think we'll see a Final Touch product, I think it'll be broken down for parts and incorporated into Apple products...I think we're agreeing here...
A few thoughts on this from a video/GFX guy:
* There's good evidence to suggest that the FinalTouch play may be about the future of Shake as it is about FCP 6+. The SD and HD versions could ship with FCP, with the 2k version going to Shake (or "Phenomenon", as the rumored codename is for whatever Shake is going to become).
* Hopefully, they'll kill FT as an external app and just bring it into FCP as a plugin or module. No small task, but the UI and workflow frustrations could sure be improved.
* Not to flame the whole Avid vs. FCP battle (disclosure: FCP user), but Apple should really be paying attention to the workflow improvements Avid has made ('Unity' I think?). The Media Manager isn't really a solution - they need a metadata/asset management system (perhaps + XSAN) and frankly, a new engine to really compete with Avid. Desperately needed! I'm having to cobble a SAN+workflow solution together (for FCP) right now - any suggestions?
* Back to the Shake thing, I wonder where this is going? Are we going to see it go away, and have Motion and Motion Pro on the high end? What will FCP 6 bring? Crazy.
* There's good evidence to suggest that the FinalTouch play may be about the future of Shake as it is about FCP 6+. The SD and HD versions could ship with FCP, with the 2k version going to Shake (or "Phenomenon", as the rumored codename is for whatever Shake is going to become).
* Hopefully, they'll kill FT as an external app and just bring it into FCP as a plugin or module. No small task, but the UI and workflow frustrations could sure be improved.
* Not to flame the whole Avid vs. FCP battle (disclosure: FCP user), but Apple should really be paying attention to the workflow improvements Avid has made ('Unity' I think?). The Media Manager isn't really a solution - they need a metadata/asset management system (perhaps + XSAN) and frankly, a new engine to really compete with Avid. Desperately needed! I'm having to cobble a SAN+workflow solution together (for FCP) right now - any suggestions?
* Back to the Shake thing, I wonder where this is going? Are we going to see it go away, and have Motion and Motion Pro on the high end? What will FCP 6 bring? Crazy.
Allan - my best guess - if they don't wrap the realtime stuff into Final Cut directly, MAYBE it'll be another standalone app in the Final Cut Studio pantheon, but why not just build it in, plug-in or no?
But I DO think Final Touch as we know it is gone...it is too non-Apple like, and doesn't work well enough yet to be ready to roll out as is for a mainstream product.
Bits and pieces and chunks of it will re-emerge later in the Final Cut Studio lineup somehow - in Final Cut's color corrector, and/or Phenomenon's realtie color correction capabilities, who knows...
But I DO think Final Touch as we know it is gone...it is too non-Apple like, and doesn't work well enough yet to be ready to roll out as is for a mainstream product.
Bits and pieces and chunks of it will re-emerge later in the Final Cut Studio lineup somehow - in Final Cut's color corrector, and/or Phenomenon's realtie color correction capabilities, who knows...
By the way, what happened to the Silicon Grail people when Apple bought them? A lot of people thought that it was a defensive move because the Silicon Grail's RAYZ was about to attack Shake. So what happened to them? Did they do Motion? Did they do the 32-bit high-quality rendering in FCP?
I'm just wondering, because the situation with Silicon Image might be similar.
Bruce
I'm just wondering, because the situation with Silicon Image might be similar.
Bruce
The most important factor in this all is QuickTime. On one hand QT as an architecture is still not obsolete after 15 years of being around. There is some headroom left. On the other hand QT team seems somewhat detached from the rest of Apple software development and from the real world.
Broadcast is quickly turning MXF and DI and VFX are DPX. How much time and money it will take to add seamless support of these two industry standards to QuickTime? How much time and money is being spent if any? Apple cannot ditch QuickTime for good so we are on the platform will have to live with it. That means we should get very vocal about its shortcomings. And while at that lets ask for RAW support too :)
>Back to the Shake thing, I wonder where this is going? Are we going to see it go away, and have Motion and Motion Pro on the high end? What will FCP 6 bring? Crazy.
I don't know where it is going, obviously, but I can say where it should go. In the direction of Toxic and Nuke.
>Hopefully, they'll kill FT as an external app and just bring it into FCP as a plugin or module. No small task, but the UI and workflow frustrations could sure be improved.
I'd rather prefer Soundrack/Motion scenario. Apple could've kept throwing more features into FCP but eventually it would end up just like Avid - essential editing commands three layers deep in some tiny obscure drop down menu in the corner of the window and the only way to work is close your eyes and hope your muscle memory still holds. Instead they created a suite of apps that talk each other acceptably well.
>But I DO think Final Touch as we know it is gone...it is too non-Apple like, and doesn't work well enough yet to be ready to roll out as is for a mainstream product.
UnApple-like Shake has been mentioned already but the more remarkable example is Logic. It is a GUI nightmare but the musicians seem to like it like that, I guess. All MIDI sequencers look spooky. Sure, the user base of Logic is probably a couple of orders of magnitude bigger than FT's. So there are chances Final Touch is going to hang around for a few years.
Broadcast is quickly turning MXF and DI and VFX are DPX. How much time and money it will take to add seamless support of these two industry standards to QuickTime? How much time and money is being spent if any? Apple cannot ditch QuickTime for good so we are on the platform will have to live with it. That means we should get very vocal about its shortcomings. And while at that lets ask for RAW support too :)
>Back to the Shake thing, I wonder where this is going? Are we going to see it go away, and have Motion and Motion Pro on the high end? What will FCP 6 bring? Crazy.
I don't know where it is going, obviously, but I can say where it should go. In the direction of Toxic and Nuke.
>Hopefully, they'll kill FT as an external app and just bring it into FCP as a plugin or module. No small task, but the UI and workflow frustrations could sure be improved.
I'd rather prefer Soundrack/Motion scenario. Apple could've kept throwing more features into FCP but eventually it would end up just like Avid - essential editing commands three layers deep in some tiny obscure drop down menu in the corner of the window and the only way to work is close your eyes and hope your muscle memory still holds. Instead they created a suite of apps that talk each other acceptably well.
>But I DO think Final Touch as we know it is gone...it is too non-Apple like, and doesn't work well enough yet to be ready to roll out as is for a mainstream product.
UnApple-like Shake has been mentioned already but the more remarkable example is Logic. It is a GUI nightmare but the musicians seem to like it like that, I guess. All MIDI sequencers look spooky. Sure, the user base of Logic is probably a couple of orders of magnitude bigger than FT's. So there are chances Final Touch is going to hang around for a few years.
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 02:37:00 PM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 02:37:00 PM CST
Mishka - Logic and Shake are definitely good examples of oddball UIs that persevered.
I think the most telling thing will be whether one can buy Final Touch HD next week.
That'll answer a LOT.
-mike
I think the most telling thing will be whether one can buy Final Touch HD next week.
That'll answer a LOT.
-mike
You are all right!
And Apple has had the FT IP for quite some time.
So let's wait and see what 6 has got???
And Apple has had the FT IP for quite some time.
So let's wait and see what 6 has got???
# posted by : Tue Oct 17, 03:15:00 PM CST
: Tue Oct 17, 03:15:00 PM CST
About Logic - I use logic and like the technology - but am very envious of many protools features still - simple and easy to implement ones even - like spotting and a better audio clip organization.
About The acquisition. Could it be a purchase to take over or clear a patent issue?
About The acquisition. Could it be a purchase to take over or clear a patent issue?
I must add an addendume about Soundtrack. At the moment Soundtrack is practically useless for the majority of people because you can't send sound back to Final Cut after working on a mix. So - once you go into Soundtrack, there's no going back to FCP except as a finished mix. That's not good when wanting to work a little in audio and then work more in FCP. For that reason a single program solution is preferable in my opinion.
Mark - an interesting point, I have no idea about patent stuff, haven't heard anything along those lines.
BUT...thinking about that....if there were a patent issue, why not license, cross license, sublicense, etc. - would you need to buy the whole company to fix it? I wouldn't think so...but it is something to ponder.
-mike
BUT...thinking about that....if there were a patent issue, why not license, cross license, sublicense, etc. - would you need to buy the whole company to fix it? I wouldn't think so...but it is something to ponder.
-mike
Jean-Luc, I'll take on that offer and will visit you in Brussels one day and we'll drink a beer or two. :)
It's an interesting discussion about where to stop with integrating more features into an application. On one hand I'm in favor of having a do-it-all-in-one program, but it would need a killer GUI to pull it off. We've already got the 'Workspace' analogy in most programs that let you switch 'hats' and perform different tasks. I think this could be taken further, letting different programs work on the same project file. Adobe is doing all sorts of interesting steps in this direction.
I still have hope that more stuff can be integrated, because there are always issues with workflow going back and forth between programs. I feel that we are at a point in time that we need to rethink the whole concept of having 'applications' on your computer, but that's another discussion.
Back on topic: I do think a lot has been going on behind the scenes for a while now. We've had the Silicon Color guys in our facility to look at one of the problems we were having. They acknowledged the problem (color shifts) and told us that they would do everything to fix it as soon as possible... We haven't heard a word since (since IBC that is).
And the fact that the release of FinalTouch HD 2.6 was so sloppy - with lots of hotfixes that broke previous fixes - I think they must have had their mind on other things. ;-)
It's an interesting discussion about where to stop with integrating more features into an application. On one hand I'm in favor of having a do-it-all-in-one program, but it would need a killer GUI to pull it off. We've already got the 'Workspace' analogy in most programs that let you switch 'hats' and perform different tasks. I think this could be taken further, letting different programs work on the same project file. Adobe is doing all sorts of interesting steps in this direction.
I still have hope that more stuff can be integrated, because there are always issues with workflow going back and forth between programs. I feel that we are at a point in time that we need to rethink the whole concept of having 'applications' on your computer, but that's another discussion.
Back on topic: I do think a lot has been going on behind the scenes for a while now. We've had the Silicon Color guys in our facility to look at one of the problems we were having. They acknowledged the problem (color shifts) and told us that they would do everything to fix it as soon as possible... We haven't heard a word since (since IBC that is).
And the fact that the release of FinalTouch HD 2.6 was so sloppy - with lots of hotfixes that broke previous fixes - I think they must have had their mind on other things. ;-)
# posted by : Wed Oct 18, 07:49:00 AM CST
: Wed Oct 18, 07:49:00 AM CST
>I think they must have had their mind on other things. ;-)
Maybe, but now I feel a bit like a cheerleader waking up early in the morning, half naked on the football field after having been drunk at the night of the proms... If you get the idea...
Maybe, but now I feel a bit like a cheerleader waking up early in the morning, half naked on the football field after having been drunk at the night of the proms... If you get the idea...
# posted by : Wed Oct 18, 08:31:00 AM CST
: Wed Oct 18, 08:31:00 AM CST
Soccer, but we are fed with american sitcoms since we are born ^^;
# posted by : Wed Oct 18, 12:49:00 PM CST
: Wed Oct 18, 12:49:00 PM CST
Wow! I've never seen this many comments on one topic on this (beautiful) site!!
What I think is important: Apple's aquisition of Shake and now Final Touch proofs they are committed to bringin Final Cut Studio to a (much) higher level. The Apple focus is stronger than ever on HDTV and Film. And that will eventually bring good news!
What I think is important: Apple's aquisition of Shake and now Final Touch proofs they are committed to bringin Final Cut Studio to a (much) higher level. The Apple focus is stronger than ever on HDTV and Film. And that will eventually bring good news!
So, Apple has bought Silicon Color, developers of Final Touch - a low cost "next generation" colour correction and conforming tool. I say "next generation" for two key aspects of Final Touch's workflow: leveraging the GPU for real-time capability on commodity (not proprietary) hardware and support for a lateral, not linear, workflow driven by integration with an EDL (provided via XML). While they didn't work so well, they were the key selling points.
Mike Curtis' excellent commentary is worth reading.
Personally, my gut feeling is that the acquisition is about Shake and Final Cut and marketing.
The whole 'what comes after Shake' thing is still a big unknown for a lot of vfx facilities, including Weta. Apple is rather quiet on the subject. While D2 is being rather aggressive with their Nuke marketing and Toxik is getting a push, facilities are being cautious: switching over your 2D pipeline to an entirely new product, however shake-like, is a big risk management issue. When you have a production slate sketched out for 18 months, you don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. I wouldn't be surprised if most facilities with at least 10 shake seats just buy the source code for the licenses alone and then bide their time to weigh up their options.
Apple has only a limited window (say 12 to 18 months) to announce their Shake replacement before their customer base makes the costly switch to a competitor, either Nuke or Toxik [which is rather un shake like]. Once that switch is made, those customers are unlikely to switch back to whatever Apple ships for a long time. They may buy a few evaluation licenses but they won't be integrated into their main workflow.
I see the Silicon Color acquisition as part of a wider strategy to slow customer emmigration while Apple work out their next-generation application. It creates buzz and keeps the mindshare that Apple is still serious about shipping a pro level application. After the non-event of Shake 4, Apple needs to *ship* a modern compositing application. The more people in facilities that are convinced that this is the case, the less likely they are to switch in the short term. I speak of facilities because they are the market for a compositing application of Shake's power and flexibility.
The problem that Apple has is that feature-level compositing applications just don't sell that much. They will never make wads of cash from selling a compositing application or the hardware to go with it.
Shake was always more about marketing via association. How many people here are talking about Shake actually own a license? How many own a license of After Effects? See. Yet, somehow Shake became a symbol of Apple's (growing) maturity as a developer of professional production tools... and the future of Shake has always been used as a barometer of Apple's intentions with that market. The logic has usually gone - "Weta used Shake. Shake is made by Apple. Therefore if I use Motion I can be like Weta too!". Shake probably sold more copies of Final Cut than it sold of itself.
Unfortunately, Apple now find themselves in a position where facilities may move away from Shake and Apple generally because of the lack of a visible roadmap (or even a hint)... and this is just at a point when the whole OS X & Intel combination made them a very attractive proposition. From a marketing perspective, this is very bad - the association works in reverse. "Weta has dropped OS X! Apple no longer considered serious player."
[ ... and the dynamics of the broadcast market - traditionally dominated by expensive, realtime hardware like Inferno - never, ever suited the kind of tool that Shake was or could ever be. It was never going to compete with Flame, regardless of the speed of the hardware. Apple had cornered itself]
So...
What does Silicon Color give them?
- Speculation and mindshare about how the technology can be incorporated into NuShake. Everyone wants to see a GPU driven compositing application with a phat 32 bit colour engine, not another Motion. People are willing to wait for this rather than invest in Nuke, Fusion or Toxik. Silicon Color will be seen as a commitment to that path, whether or not they *need* the technology. Remember already have the Combustion team which was instrumental in Motion's real time GPU ness, the CoreImage team, the Aperture team, the original Silicon Grail team [and that other one they bought, I never remember], and the legendary Ron Brinkmann. Perhaps Apple hit a brick wall and needed the throughput the Final Touch guys could deliver? Hmm.
- The ability to ship a dedicated colour correction application as part of the Final Cut Suite. My gut feeling is that it won't be built into Final Cut because its too late to be integrated into FCP6 (NAB 2007, mark my words) and, frankly, a dedicated colour correction application is a better idea because of the different workflow between editorial and grading. They can do this quickly: They can move on this very quickly too. Take what would have been FT3, tidy it up, and release it as part of FC Studio 6 with Apple branding. They did that with DVD Studio Pro 1, LiveType, Soundtrack & Final Cut itself [when it was with macromedia].
- The option to create the rumored third-tier of Final Cut ness... Final Cut Extreme ie a full 2 to 4K editing *and* conforming solution. Apple has always wanted to sell the whole widget but they haven't been able to move into the booming Digital Intermediate Market because they've lacked a solution. Now they have one. One which should elegantly tie into their NLE package - something which other colour correction and conforming solutions lack. It will be the whole package, because a stand alone 'Final Touch' remake just wont' shift units OR create mindshare.
NBs:
- When Apple acquired Shake, Silicon Grail already had a good reputation in the VFX industry. They bought it AFTER it was used on Fellowship of the Rings in order to get a foot hold in the industry. Silicon Color don't have the same reputation, they acquisition isn't about quickly penetrating an already existing market...
- Apple has to strike the balance between delivering a feature-level compositing application and something which will also sell to the wider market.
- The whole UNIX philosophy, which Apple has continued to embrace with OS X generally, is to have a range of specialised Applications which integrate well together. Address Book, Mail, Motion, Soundtrack etc. I am willing to place large bets that whatever happens with Final Touch, it will be as a separate application and NOT incorporated into an already bloated Final Cut.
Mike Curtis' excellent commentary is worth reading.
Personally, my gut feeling is that the acquisition is about Shake and Final Cut and marketing.
The whole 'what comes after Shake' thing is still a big unknown for a lot of vfx facilities, including Weta. Apple is rather quiet on the subject. While D2 is being rather aggressive with their Nuke marketing and Toxik is getting a push, facilities are being cautious: switching over your 2D pipeline to an entirely new product, however shake-like, is a big risk management issue. When you have a production slate sketched out for 18 months, you don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. I wouldn't be surprised if most facilities with at least 10 shake seats just buy the source code for the licenses alone and then bide their time to weigh up their options.
Apple has only a limited window (say 12 to 18 months) to announce their Shake replacement before their customer base makes the costly switch to a competitor, either Nuke or Toxik [which is rather un shake like]. Once that switch is made, those customers are unlikely to switch back to whatever Apple ships for a long time. They may buy a few evaluation licenses but they won't be integrated into their main workflow.
I see the Silicon Color acquisition as part of a wider strategy to slow customer emmigration while Apple work out their next-generation application. It creates buzz and keeps the mindshare that Apple is still serious about shipping a pro level application. After the non-event of Shake 4, Apple needs to *ship* a modern compositing application. The more people in facilities that are convinced that this is the case, the less likely they are to switch in the short term. I speak of facilities because they are the market for a compositing application of Shake's power and flexibility.
The problem that Apple has is that feature-level compositing applications just don't sell that much. They will never make wads of cash from selling a compositing application or the hardware to go with it.
Shake was always more about marketing via association. How many people here are talking about Shake actually own a license? How many own a license of After Effects? See. Yet, somehow Shake became a symbol of Apple's (growing) maturity as a developer of professional production tools... and the future of Shake has always been used as a barometer of Apple's intentions with that market. The logic has usually gone - "Weta used Shake. Shake is made by Apple. Therefore if I use Motion I can be like Weta too!". Shake probably sold more copies of Final Cut than it sold of itself.
Unfortunately, Apple now find themselves in a position where facilities may move away from Shake and Apple generally because of the lack of a visible roadmap (or even a hint)... and this is just at a point when the whole OS X & Intel combination made them a very attractive proposition. From a marketing perspective, this is very bad - the association works in reverse. "Weta has dropped OS X! Apple no longer considered serious player."
[ ... and the dynamics of the broadcast market - traditionally dominated by expensive, realtime hardware like Inferno - never, ever suited the kind of tool that Shake was or could ever be. It was never going to compete with Flame, regardless of the speed of the hardware. Apple had cornered itself]
So...
What does Silicon Color give them?
- Speculation and mindshare about how the technology can be incorporated into NuShake. Everyone wants to see a GPU driven compositing application with a phat 32 bit colour engine, not another Motion. People are willing to wait for this rather than invest in Nuke, Fusion or Toxik. Silicon Color will be seen as a commitment to that path, whether or not they *need* the technology. Remember already have the Combustion team which was instrumental in Motion's real time GPU ness, the CoreImage team, the Aperture team, the original Silicon Grail team [and that other one they bought, I never remember], and the legendary Ron Brinkmann. Perhaps Apple hit a brick wall and needed the throughput the Final Touch guys could deliver? Hmm.
- The ability to ship a dedicated colour correction application as part of the Final Cut Suite. My gut feeling is that it won't be built into Final Cut because its too late to be integrated into FCP6 (NAB 2007, mark my words) and, frankly, a dedicated colour correction application is a better idea because of the different workflow between editorial and grading. They can do this quickly: They can move on this very quickly too. Take what would have been FT3, tidy it up, and release it as part of FC Studio 6 with Apple branding. They did that with DVD Studio Pro 1, LiveType, Soundtrack & Final Cut itself [when it was with macromedia].
- The option to create the rumored third-tier of Final Cut ness... Final Cut Extreme ie a full 2 to 4K editing *and* conforming solution. Apple has always wanted to sell the whole widget but they haven't been able to move into the booming Digital Intermediate Market because they've lacked a solution. Now they have one. One which should elegantly tie into their NLE package - something which other colour correction and conforming solutions lack. It will be the whole package, because a stand alone 'Final Touch' remake just wont' shift units OR create mindshare.
NBs:
- When Apple acquired Shake, Silicon Grail already had a good reputation in the VFX industry. They bought it AFTER it was used on Fellowship of the Rings in order to get a foot hold in the industry. Silicon Color don't have the same reputation, they acquisition isn't about quickly penetrating an already existing market...
- Apple has to strike the balance between delivering a feature-level compositing application and something which will also sell to the wider market.
- The whole UNIX philosophy, which Apple has continued to embrace with OS X generally, is to have a range of specialised Applications which integrate well together. Address Book, Mail, Motion, Soundtrack etc. I am willing to place large bets that whatever happens with Final Touch, it will be as a separate application and NOT incorporated into an already bloated Final Cut.
Wait. They bought Silicon Grail and Nothing Real. Heh. The bought one application and it's competition. That was funny. It's like buying Logic and Cubase and then just selling one of them....
I stil want to believe, give them the benefits of doubt. After all, when Apple bought Shake, there laso has been a week or two of total blackout from Nothing Real (we know, we were going to buy our first Shake seat at that time, and finally bought the first european Apple Shake seat :-) ).
Remember that Apple makes people sign very strict NDA once they are in the place, and that now, before releasing any statement, people from Silicon Color has to pass all the marketing and internal filters, that can take some time.
I also hope they keep Final Touch as a seperate application. That's the way things should be nowaday, I don't need a monolithic software piece that does everything but none of it well. I want a suite a dedicated applications that interact with each other. And it seems that's the way Apple is taking, look at iCal, Adress Book and Mail, Apple never wanted or showed any intention to create a new Entourage.
I just hope we'll get a statement soon, being one way or the other. The worst part in this is not knowing anything and getting carried on...
Remember that Apple makes people sign very strict NDA once they are in the place, and that now, before releasing any statement, people from Silicon Color has to pass all the marketing and internal filters, that can take some time.
I also hope they keep Final Touch as a seperate application. That's the way things should be nowaday, I don't need a monolithic software piece that does everything but none of it well. I want a suite a dedicated applications that interact with each other. And it seems that's the way Apple is taking, look at iCal, Adress Book and Mail, Apple never wanted or showed any intention to create a new Entourage.
I just hope we'll get a statement soon, being one way or the other. The worst part in this is not knowing anything and getting carried on...
>Shake was always more about marketing via association.
It is unclear did it more good or harm to Apple. Almost everything new in the two last FCP releases was actual usable improvements, not some marketing-driven salesman demo joy. At the same time "Apple must prove its commitment to the professional" mood haven't changed much during the years. I guess Shake non-development was its biggest source lately.
It is unclear did it more good or harm to Apple. Almost everything new in the two last FCP releases was actual usable improvements, not some marketing-driven salesman demo joy. At the same time "Apple must prove its commitment to the professional" mood haven't changed much during the years. I guess Shake non-development was its biggest source lately.
# posted by : Thu Oct 19, 03:37:00 AM CST
: Thu Oct 19, 03:37:00 AM CST
Jean-Luc, I think your "iCal, Address Book, Mail" analogy is perfect. Saying Apple will just incorporate FinalTouch inside Final Cut is like saying Apple will just incorporate Logic into Final Cut.
Would it be fancy and convenient if they did that? Yes. But not only are they all totally different apps that uses the computers systems in completely different ways, but it's a completely different person in the chair.
Would it be fancy and convenient if they did that? Yes. But not only are they all totally different apps that uses the computers systems in completely different ways, but it's a completely different person in the chair.
# posted by : Thu Oct 19, 10:25:00 PM CST
: Thu Oct 19, 10:25:00 PM CST
I have received an e-mail from Silicon Color saying that they are not selling anymore products, and resellers have received order to stop selling FinalTouch immediately.
I guess Apple is going to update FinalTouch to version 3 and make a even better integration of FinalTouch with their new Intel base hardware. Hope so...
I guess Apple is going to update FinalTouch to version 3 and make a even better integration of FinalTouch with their new Intel base hardware. Hope so...
# posted by : Wed Dec 13, 03:24:00 AM CST
: Wed Dec 13, 03:24:00 AM CST
Color or Colour
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http://colour-info.blogspot.com/
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Introduce to clor
http://colour-info.blogspot.com/
# posted by : Fri Feb 23, 02:21:00 AM CST
: Fri Feb 23, 02:21:00 AM CSTLinks to this post: