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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.
YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com
All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.
Friday, December 08, 2006
When does 1080p make a difference?
1080p Does Matter - Here's When (Screen Size vs. Viewing Distance vs. Resolution)LOVE this - this is probably my favorite propeller beanie twirler of the week. Just my kind of geekery I always wanted to know - OK, so based on 20/20 vision, just how far back from an HDTV screen of a given size do you have to be before you can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p? Between 480p (SD) and 720p (bottom rung HD)?
Turns out not as far as I thought - read the article and study the two charts in it - this makes me suspect that HD isn't going to really take off until BIG screens get CHEAP - because you need something more akin to theater-like field of view (that screen covers a lot of your eyeball viewing) before the advantages really shine.
For instance - got a 40 inch set? Sitting 10 feet away? Even with 20/20 vision, you can't make out all the detail of even a 720p signal.
According to their math, with a 40 inch set, you'd have to be 5 feet away to make out all the detail (each and every pixel) of a 1080p set. And who is going to do that?
NOW...that is presuming the math here is right. Anybody willing to call shenanigans on their math? I haven't double checked it, but it makes a compelling argument.
If you want high res viewing, and want ACTUAL benefit from it rather than just bragging rights, a projector starts to make a whooooole lot of sense.
And maybe I DON'T need a 1080p set in my living room - my couch is 10+ feet away. According to this chart, I'd need about a 75" set to get maximum advantage of 1080p, and a 50" set to see all of 720p (although anything over 50" I could see the difference, in theory, between a 720p and 1080p resolution image).
So I interpret this as HDTV pre-recorded movies won't make a dent until we can SEE the damn difference - and that'll take BIG screens, which are still expensive as hell, and that'll take a while.
The flip side? Use these charts to figure out your typical viewing distances - maybe you DON'T need a super high res set after all - if you study the chart, oftentimes in terms of being able to "see more" you'd be better off with a bigger, lower res HDTV screen rather than a smaller, higher resolution one.
This chart may end up being proof of the postponement of the viability of the HDTV and HD disc market - if people can't afford a big enough, high enough res screen to tell substantial difference between it and standard TV, why would they buy high def gear? Put another way - if DVDs look GREAT on my 720p res TV I sit "too far" back from, and the high def disc doesn't look substantially, demonstrably, "you can see the difference without them side by side" BETTER, and regular DVD players are $40, and high def players are $500 to $1500, why on EARTH would anybody buy one? I mean, anyone other than you and me, like Joe/Jane Consumer?
At the current pace of price drops, (which are great and all, but finite) it'll be YEARS before most folks can afford a big enough, high enough resolution set to really show off the advantages of HD discs. And even if they were cheap - how many average consumers have the space, AND are willing to dedicate that much space to TV/movie watching? And again, I'm talkin' civilians, not you and me here.
As much as I REALLY want high def to catch on in the home, ESPECIALLY for high def movie playback, since that is a way for indies to get into the game (broadcast & pay-per-view being limited mostly to the studios' fare), I fear for the time being, between these issues as well as the stupid format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray, we're still looking at the feared Laserdisc 2.0 Syndrome, where only the hardcore video fanatics go to the trouble and expense of having the full HD setup. I hope not, but that is a SERIOUS risk at this point.
(EDIT - I fear I'll also make even worse run-on compound sentences, too)
After reading this article, I decided that holding out for a 1080p set probably isn't actually worth it in the near term- since at my viewing distance, I probably couldn't tell anyway. I started seriously considering mounting a projector in my laundry room with a glass port into the bedroom with a BIG pulldown screen that would block a three window wide space - THAT is what it would take to REALLY get the benefit of HD discs - and I'd STILL be 15+ feet back from the screen, which isn't all that far in theatrical movie viewing distance context.
And then whoever wants to watch better be comfy watching movies from my bed.
But maybe that's a conversation for an entirely different, and different kind, of blog.
; )
-mike
Comments:
Yo Mike,
I often think when I play my Xbox 360 games:
"wouldn't it be cool if I had a 1080 set, then I could sit right in front of it and get a wider field of vision as I sort those pesky tangos out or skid my digital Countach around"
This could be an early driver for HD set adoption
I often think when I play my Xbox 360 games:
"wouldn't it be cool if I had a 1080 set, then I could sit right in front of it and get a wider field of vision as I sort those pesky tangos out or skid my digital Countach around"
This could be an early driver for HD set adoption
Dale - I agree! That'll certainly help, but I don't think be a major driving factor (haha, I pun badly).
Funny how you say that and my mind goes back to my Mom telling to not sit too close to the TV set, bad for my eyes or radiation or something (I forget the argument) yet I spent all day 2 feet from a 24" monitor, staring at tiny type....
-mike
Funny how you say that and my mind goes back to my Mom telling to not sit too close to the TV set, bad for my eyes or radiation or something (I forget the argument) yet I spent all day 2 feet from a 24" monitor, staring at tiny type....
-mike
i always thought that you guys are much to much concerned about resolution (thus the exitement over red)... dymanic range (or projection contrast) and colors are much more important than sheer pixel count.
from this table, if you sit 100ft away from a screen (like in a cinema) you need a 82 feet screen just to start to see the benefit of 1440p. for 2400p (or whatever red uses) that would mean a screen of nearly 140 feet (which basically means your sitting as close as the screen is wide).
and of course you still have to ask yourself if you really want to see the nostril hair of your favorite actor
from this table, if you sit 100ft away from a screen (like in a cinema) you need a 82 feet screen just to start to see the benefit of 1440p. for 2400p (or whatever red uses) that would mean a screen of nearly 140 feet (which basically means your sitting as close as the screen is wide).
and of course you still have to ask yourself if you really want to see the nostril hair of your favorite actor
I care more about the quality of compression in HD content than resolution. I've played less than DVD resolution video that was compressed very well on my brother's projector (1280x1024 resolution) that looked to me like a theatrical projection. I'm not kidding. This is sitting more than 10' away from a 100+ inch area. Direct TV with better resolution but awful compression looks like a QuickTime movie from 1997 on such a large screen. I did play a 960x540 and a 1920x1080 clip of the same video on the projector and you couldn't tell the difference really from across the room.
I agree that there is little difference in most peoples' living rooms. (How many HDTVs have I seen at friends/relatives that are displaying SD signal over coax with the wrong aspect ratio? How about 100%?)
Where people see the difference in full-res HD is on the sales showroom floor. Observe people buying a TV -- they stand 3 to 5 feet from the thing. They are comparing things like visible scan lines that disappear when sitting on their couch at 6 feet.
Where people see the difference in full-res HD is on the sales showroom floor. Observe people buying a TV -- they stand 3 to 5 feet from the thing. They are comparing things like visible scan lines that disappear when sitting on their couch at 6 feet.
Greg B. here...
Well Mike, you've seen my living room and 65" RP tv set. I can always tell the difference between HD content and uprezzed (480P) content. However, since the FCC has mandated the transition to all digital broadcast, most folks in the market for a new set will likely buy HD anyway, especially since the technology has reached the Wal-Mart price point. So regardless of the math, I think marketing and sales pressure will push the HD thing over the edge.
Well Mike, you've seen my living room and 65" RP tv set. I can always tell the difference between HD content and uprezzed (480P) content. However, since the FCC has mandated the transition to all digital broadcast, most folks in the market for a new set will likely buy HD anyway, especially since the technology has reached the Wal-Mart price point. So regardless of the math, I think marketing and sales pressure will push the HD thing over the edge.
Yeah, the point this brings home for me is the insanity of people dropping several thousand dollars on LCD and Plasma HD sets in the 42" - 60" range... what's the point? I have an Optoma H31 480P Projector sitting 13' from a 106" diagonal DaLite High Power screen, though, and let me tell you, even down-rezzed to 480P, the HD content looks stunning. Mind you, this is with a total of $1,200 invested. At that size, there is a huge difference in HD and SD content, meaning the SD stuff is pretty hard to watch. I'm looking forward to an upgrade to an HD projector soon though, but given how good the H31 handles HD, I can wait until Optoma puts out a 1080P projector at the $999 price point. For those of you looking at HD sets, do yourself a favor and see a projector like the H31 in a properly light controlled room with a high gain reflective screen. You won't waste your money on an LCD, trust me.
I would like to argue that as "cool" as this graph and topic is, it is still a bit suggestive. Resolution does not equal esthetic, and although at 20/20 you may not be able to make out certain detail past a certain distance, I would argue that the image of an HD monitor would send a cleaner, crisper image to your brain than an SD one. I don't think that measuring somones ability to make out detail at a specific distance tell the whole story of how the human eye "subsamples" and downrezzes.
Mike,
Just don't tell anyone about the chart. If it wasn't for the civilian consumer Joe & Jane, the prices of these large would-be HD panels will not come down in price at this alarming rate and poor indies cannot not afford to buy them.
Just don't tell anyone about the chart. If it wasn't for the civilian consumer Joe & Jane, the prices of these large would-be HD panels will not come down in price at this alarming rate and poor indies cannot not afford to buy them.
@ Mark l. pederson:
That's why the author Carlton Bale makes a distinction between "becoming apparent", which I would equal to your "cleaner, crisper", and "fully apparent", which is where you can actually consciously see a difference in detail. So Carlton's method still holds. If you're further away than the "becoming apparent" distance, then even HD will not make the picture "cleaner and crisper", and certainly not more detailed. On the other hand, if you're between the becoming apparent distance and the fully apparent distance, you won't see more detail, but the picture will be crisper.
Thomas Schuler
That's why the author Carlton Bale makes a distinction between "becoming apparent", which I would equal to your "cleaner, crisper", and "fully apparent", which is where you can actually consciously see a difference in detail. So Carlton's method still holds. If you're further away than the "becoming apparent" distance, then even HD will not make the picture "cleaner and crisper", and certainly not more detailed. On the other hand, if you're between the becoming apparent distance and the fully apparent distance, you won't see more detail, but the picture will be crisper.
Thomas Schuler
Don't confuse me with the facts! I've had a 42" HDTV for several years. I just installed a new plasma 42" w/ HDDVD (in a different location). There is a substantial difference in the picture quality. Can I see the detail of each and every pixel? I have no idea. All I know is that the HDDVD on a 42" screen delivers a stunning look -- vibrant colors, blacks that are, well, black. The entire set cost about $1700 ($1200 for the Phillips screen and $500 for the HDDVD player -- by the way, the RCA HDDVD player is actually made by Toshiba.)
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