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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.
YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com
All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.
Tuesday, February 27, 2007
Major Update from Red Founder Jim Jannard, Analysis
Major Update... - Reduser.net
Jim posted a lengthy piece on Reduser.net summarizing the State of Red, and it is overall good news.
Summary:
CAMERAS AND SHIPPING STATUS:
-first units anticipated to be delivered "around NAB"
-the first 100 or so will not be feature complete (more on that further down)
-all cameras field firmware/software upgradeable to add missing features
-all features expected functional by June or July
-production ramp up to be slower than originally guessed - meaning take longer to catch up on all backorders/reservations
-they THINK they can fulfill all reservations by Sept/Oct timeframe
-Redcine, EVF, LCD, drives & rails all available when the cameras are shipping
-110% refund to any dissatisfied reservation holders after NAB
-full price list of everything announced in 2 weeks
NAB
-WORKING CAMERAS IN THE BOOTH AT NAB
-Sony 4K projector in booth, projecting 4K
-full shooting/capture/workflow demos in booth
-"significant announcements" at NAB - partnerships, etc.
Read the post (link at top) for further details.
MY GUESSES & ANALYSIS
They say units 1-100 will not be feature complete, and in a later posting on the thread Jim mentions RGB recording modes won't be there. So my GUESS, not based on any hard data from Red, is that 4K compressed recording will work (that HAS been confirmed), but RGB recording won't (Jim mentions this in a later post on that thread). And I'd GUESS that recording scaled 1080p and 720p might be another of the features not included at first, as those are RGB derived deliverables. But since you can shoot 4K and convert to 1080p/720p with Redcine, might that be the plan at first? If so, that isn't much of a punishment - you'll still be able to get good results, the hassle will be reduced record times - if you COULD record at 720p instead of 4K, you could obviously get a lot more recording time on the Red Drive by recording those smaller frames. The only thing that I think would be truly limiting would be if you couldn't shoot windowed 2K footage at first, that would obviate (or at least seriously limit) PL mount Super16 lenses. Since the workflow is more roughly analagous to a film camera rather than a video camera, these omissions aren't as big a deal - you fix that in the "lab" or "telecine" - in Redcine, their conversion software.
Not mentioned were the B4 and still lens adaptors, but my understanding has always been that those would ship after the camera did. I'd guess when all the prices are announced, we MIGHT get some more dates on accessory availability.
I read on one of the threads the other day that due to the disk format of the Red Drive, recorded files will get chunked at 4GB apiece. While QuickTime will read these correctly and sequentially (I'm guessing some QT reference file cleverness), it is yet another little stumbling block that will be leading you back to Redcine as your one stop processing shop to put it into a format you like that you find useful.
Also, a point I'd like to get clarfication on - Jim said:
We are on track to begin delivering the 1st RED ONE (Spike) cameras somewhere around NAB as promised.
Now, is that delivered as in completed, to be used for internal testing, or is that actual delivery to clients? The lowest #s I know of for non-Red folks are for OffHollywood, my friends Mark & Aldey up in New York (who will be renting them out, but only if you do post with them last I heard). They have units 6 & 7 reserved. So does that mean Mark gets his around NAB, or that lower #'d units are for what, internal testing? First units for internal testing is definitely a significant milestone, but first units delivered to paying clients is the biggie.
UPDATE: Steve Gibby dropped me an email to remind me he's got number 8 - he's an Emmy winning indepedent shooter/producer in California, his company is Cut4. He's written on Red for Studio Monthly a number of times, and will have Day Zero articles at NAB I'm sure. Between him and OffHollywood, I'm pretty damn sure I'll be testing the first publicly available Red units ASAP.
So, if:
1.) 1-100 won't be feature complete
2.) ramp up of production line will take longer than expected
3.) All features to be enabled by June/July
4.) Sept/Oct for all 1500 reservations to be filled
(and this is conjecture based on the above)
-does this mean it'll take them until June/July to get those first 100 out?
-if the above conjecture is correct, that would imply a pretty aggressive ramp - if it takes 2-3 months to get the first 100 out, that would imply 1400 more in the following 4-5 months
Having seen that they'd just gotten first prototypes together at the end of December, this is IMPRESSIVE progress - I'd quietly been surmising they wouldn't ship until summer just based on the date of prototype assembly and knowing the level of complexity of the project, getting those zillion parts to all dance in harmony is a major, MAJOR challenge - so hats off to the team for moving this fast.
Thinking about this accelerated delivery schedule, I briefly worried about them rushing something out the door that wasn't 100% reliable, but I don't think it would be in Jim's character to ship something not ready for the rigors of actual production - certainly not knowingly, anyway - so that puts those concerns mostly to rest. I've had long talks with Jim about this thing, he wants it to be a tank in the field, reliable and rugged. And it would be entirely their style to delay and fix it rather than meet a designated ship date - they've been saying that all along.
I'm looking forward to their announcements at NAB, should be VERY interesting. Considering that last year at NAB was when they launched specs and pricing of the Red One, and a year later they'll have working units in the booth, that is moving FAST in this industry. And it will be VERY interesting to see what they consider "significant" announcements.
I'll be there reporting it all, you can count on it!
-mike
Jim posted a lengthy piece on Reduser.net summarizing the State of Red, and it is overall good news.
Summary:
CAMERAS AND SHIPPING STATUS:
-first units anticipated to be delivered "around NAB"
-the first 100 or so will not be feature complete (more on that further down)
-all cameras field firmware/software upgradeable to add missing features
-all features expected functional by June or July
-production ramp up to be slower than originally guessed - meaning take longer to catch up on all backorders/reservations
-they THINK they can fulfill all reservations by Sept/Oct timeframe
-Redcine, EVF, LCD, drives & rails all available when the cameras are shipping
-110% refund to any dissatisfied reservation holders after NAB
-full price list of everything announced in 2 weeks
NAB
-WORKING CAMERAS IN THE BOOTH AT NAB
-Sony 4K projector in booth, projecting 4K
-full shooting/capture/workflow demos in booth
-"significant announcements" at NAB - partnerships, etc.
Read the post (link at top) for further details.
MY GUESSES & ANALYSIS
They say units 1-100 will not be feature complete, and in a later posting on the thread Jim mentions RGB recording modes won't be there. So my GUESS, not based on any hard data from Red, is that 4K compressed recording will work (that HAS been confirmed), but RGB recording won't (Jim mentions this in a later post on that thread). And I'd GUESS that recording scaled 1080p and 720p might be another of the features not included at first, as those are RGB derived deliverables. But since you can shoot 4K and convert to 1080p/720p with Redcine, might that be the plan at first? If so, that isn't much of a punishment - you'll still be able to get good results, the hassle will be reduced record times - if you COULD record at 720p instead of 4K, you could obviously get a lot more recording time on the Red Drive by recording those smaller frames. The only thing that I think would be truly limiting would be if you couldn't shoot windowed 2K footage at first, that would obviate (or at least seriously limit) PL mount Super16 lenses. Since the workflow is more roughly analagous to a film camera rather than a video camera, these omissions aren't as big a deal - you fix that in the "lab" or "telecine" - in Redcine, their conversion software.
Not mentioned were the B4 and still lens adaptors, but my understanding has always been that those would ship after the camera did. I'd guess when all the prices are announced, we MIGHT get some more dates on accessory availability.
I read on one of the threads the other day that due to the disk format of the Red Drive, recorded files will get chunked at 4GB apiece. While QuickTime will read these correctly and sequentially (I'm guessing some QT reference file cleverness), it is yet another little stumbling block that will be leading you back to Redcine as your one stop processing shop to put it into a format you like that you find useful.
Also, a point I'd like to get clarfication on - Jim said:
We are on track to begin delivering the 1st RED ONE (Spike) cameras somewhere around NAB as promised.
Now, is that delivered as in completed, to be used for internal testing, or is that actual delivery to clients? The lowest #s I know of for non-Red folks are for OffHollywood, my friends Mark & Aldey up in New York (who will be renting them out, but only if you do post with them last I heard). They have units 6 & 7 reserved. So does that mean Mark gets his around NAB, or that lower #'d units are for what, internal testing? First units for internal testing is definitely a significant milestone, but first units delivered to paying clients is the biggie.
UPDATE: Steve Gibby dropped me an email to remind me he's got number 8 - he's an Emmy winning indepedent shooter/producer in California, his company is Cut4. He's written on Red for Studio Monthly a number of times, and will have Day Zero articles at NAB I'm sure. Between him and OffHollywood, I'm pretty damn sure I'll be testing the first publicly available Red units ASAP.
So, if:
1.) 1-100 won't be feature complete
2.) ramp up of production line will take longer than expected
3.) All features to be enabled by June/July
4.) Sept/Oct for all 1500 reservations to be filled
(and this is conjecture based on the above)
-does this mean it'll take them until June/July to get those first 100 out?
-if the above conjecture is correct, that would imply a pretty aggressive ramp - if it takes 2-3 months to get the first 100 out, that would imply 1400 more in the following 4-5 months
Having seen that they'd just gotten first prototypes together at the end of December, this is IMPRESSIVE progress - I'd quietly been surmising they wouldn't ship until summer just based on the date of prototype assembly and knowing the level of complexity of the project, getting those zillion parts to all dance in harmony is a major, MAJOR challenge - so hats off to the team for moving this fast.
Thinking about this accelerated delivery schedule, I briefly worried about them rushing something out the door that wasn't 100% reliable, but I don't think it would be in Jim's character to ship something not ready for the rigors of actual production - certainly not knowingly, anyway - so that puts those concerns mostly to rest. I've had long talks with Jim about this thing, he wants it to be a tank in the field, reliable and rugged. And it would be entirely their style to delay and fix it rather than meet a designated ship date - they've been saying that all along.
I'm looking forward to their announcements at NAB, should be VERY interesting. Considering that last year at NAB was when they launched specs and pricing of the Red One, and a year later they'll have working units in the booth, that is moving FAST in this industry. And it will be VERY interesting to see what they consider "significant" announcements.
I'll be there reporting it all, you can count on it!
-mike
Comments:
Where are all of the 35mm format lenses going to come from for these cameras? Still lenses are no good due to image shift. Used ziess superspeeds are almost unobtainable.
Perhaps they could offer a BNCR mount and Red users could buy old Super Baltars.
Seriously, if you want to shoot a 35mm sized image, there not many options.
Perhaps they could offer a BNCR mount and Red users could buy old Super Baltars.
Seriously, if you want to shoot a 35mm sized image, there not many options.
B4 lenses are only going to give you HD coverage at best... they will not cover the super 35mm sized chip on the Red.
The whole point of the Red is the large chip. With 1500 of these cameras flooding the market in less than a year, Red will need to ramp up production of their lenses to satisfy the market. PL mount primes are in very short supply. There are not 1500 sets nor are there many quality zoom lenses available. Angenieux, Cooke, and Zeiss all make new optics, but they are very expensive. Will the average Red buyer be able to afford such prices?
Chris
The whole point of the Red is the large chip. With 1500 of these cameras flooding the market in less than a year, Red will need to ramp up production of their lenses to satisfy the market. PL mount primes are in very short supply. There are not 1500 sets nor are there many quality zoom lenses available. Angenieux, Cooke, and Zeiss all make new optics, but they are very expensive. Will the average Red buyer be able to afford such prices?
Chris
B4 coverage - well yeah, that's a given.
The number of prime sets on the market? That's a very good question I don't know the answer to.
Will average Red buyer be able to afford? No.
I betcha we'll see a lot more PL mount glass coming to market in next coupla years, and I'll betcha even some announcements at NAB...
The number of prime sets on the market? That's a very good question I don't know the answer to.
Will average Red buyer be able to afford? No.
I betcha we'll see a lot more PL mount glass coming to market in next coupla years, and I'll betcha even some announcements at NAB...
The Red Forums have some talk of a 3rd party Canon EF lens adapter under development (including follow focus support and all that good stuff). I don't know enough about cine lenses to say how practical EF lenses are for real cine use, but they should give you the 35mm sensor coverage and HD image quality, and they're downright cheap compared to many of the PL lenses out there.
Mike -
Offhollywood plans on flying you up to the big Apple to fully document our initial tests.
Springtime in NY!
Helicopter aerials of the big city in 4K!
Offhollywood plans on flying you up to the big Apple to fully document our initial tests.
Springtime in NY!
Helicopter aerials of the big city in 4K!
Here are a few reasons why still lenses are not such a great solution for motion picture:
1) Image shift. Still lenses are not designed to be mechanically stable when you change focus. Hence, when you do a focus pull, the image can shift or move.
2) Color. Still lenses are not designed to be color matched. So when you go from your wide shot at 24mm to a close up at 85mm, the color rendition may not match.
3) Constant stop. Still lens sets are not always the same stop. Some may be fast while others may be a 2.8 or a 4. Not so good when you DP want to keep the stop.
None of these issues are factors for still photographers. These are also the reason why motion picture lenses are soooo much more expensive. I am not saying you can't shoot your feature using still lenses, only that there are compromises which may not be acceptable.
I hope the Red folks get their zoom lens to market as soon as possible. Uses sets of Zeiss Mk II superspeeds are selling for 25K!
Post a Comment
1) Image shift. Still lenses are not designed to be mechanically stable when you change focus. Hence, when you do a focus pull, the image can shift or move.
2) Color. Still lenses are not designed to be color matched. So when you go from your wide shot at 24mm to a close up at 85mm, the color rendition may not match.
3) Constant stop. Still lens sets are not always the same stop. Some may be fast while others may be a 2.8 or a 4. Not so good when you DP want to keep the stop.
None of these issues are factors for still photographers. These are also the reason why motion picture lenses are soooo much more expensive. I am not saying you can't shoot your feature using still lenses, only that there are compromises which may not be acceptable.
I hope the Red folks get their zoom lens to market as soon as possible. Uses sets of Zeiss Mk II superspeeds are selling for 25K!
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