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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.
YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com
All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.
Monday, April 23, 2007
Entirely New Products coming from Red - Professional Pocket Camera, 4K Displays & 4K Projectors
This one's short and sweet, but I wanted to get it exactly right and have it be its own freestanding article.
FACTS
Aside from new accessories coming from Red (separate article coming), Red announced 3 new classes of upcoming products. To be precise and accurate, I'm going to directly quote Ted Schilowitz, the spokesperson for Red:
1.) A "professional pocket camera" - also referred to elsewhere as a handheld camera
2.) A "new line of 4K projectors"
3.) A "new line of 4K displays"
I asked "Plural on both?" he said "Plural on both."
No timeline, no pricing, no features on any of that beyond the obvious. At this point, I think they've learned about saying too much too early, so they are just putting it out there.
100% SPECULATIVE CONJECTURE
My tea leaf reading based on those statements:
1.) "Professional pocket camera" - Ted was clear to point out "PROFESSIONAL" - NOT a prosumer camera, a professional camera. I think he said something about not plastic, too. Therefore high quality and not cheap. "Pocket" - not handheld, not small form factor, the word "pocket" was explicitly used, so that implies a pretty small camera to me. So if it is small, I'd guess that would imply it has to fit in your pocket with the lens on it, right? And if the lens on it (presumably fixed I'm guessing, otherwise what mount is small enough to fit a lens on it in your pocket?) is small enough that the whole thing fits in your pocket, would that not imply a smaller sized sensor? And if a smaller sensor, wouldn't that imply lower res? If Red One is as small as they could make a 4K camera, wouldn't pocket sized have to be lower capability anyway with fewer electronics/power/image processing? Therefore lower res as well? All conjecture based on "pocket" - I dunno if that will all logically follow from there...
2.) 4K projectors - man, that's takin' the fight right into Sony's face, as they are the only 4K projectors presently on the market (although I keep hearing rumblings about others under development). I didn't get a chance to research projectors at NAB. But if the pricing of it is in line with how Red prices other stuff...is it possible to build a 4K projector for under $20K-$25K? I hear the bulbs are wickedly expensive, some $1000s of dollars apiece for a high intensity Xenon lamp, which spectrally is the way to go. And a LINE of 4K projectors - we don't know if they are talking about something powerful enough for theatrical applications, or business applications (DI work, medical & industrial visualization?), or even home applications (based on the arc angles of human vision, how big a screen do I need to even SEE 4K if sitting 10-15 feet away?). And other than theatrical distribution, where would 4K footage be coming from? Video cards are soooooo not up to doing 4K at decent frame rates these days, which leads us to...
3.) 4K displays - for editorial and VFX work, these'd be great - to FINALLY see all the res of what you're working on. Wait a minute, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself - are these computer displays, video/image displays, or both? Unknown at this point in time. An especially large concern of mine would be what the interface is - the only known video interface for 4K at this time is a big fat wad of HD-SDI dual links - a total of 8 to be exact - Sony's 4K projector is actually 4096x2160, which is the DCI spec for 4K, which is four dual link 2048x1080 images set up in quads. Kind of a hassle. Is that what we'd have to use for an interface for video stuff? That'd require some new hardware, to say the least. And when they say line of displays, my eyes light up on that one - I'd love to see a 32"-36" 4K display for doing post work, and a bigger (50-80 inch) display for client, coloring and living room viewing. The thought of the price point on that could get pretty scary, too. For computer displays, there are twin dual link DVI to drive 3840x2160 (or is it x2400?) displays, but frame rates can be an issue - I think we had something like 16Hz at best at IBC trying to drive a 3840xwhatever display from a computer video card. DEFINITELY takes a high end, specialty video card.
Notice they haven't said diddly about display tech either - LCD, LCoS, plasma, etc., just "4K," "displays," and "projectors" - the rest is all speculation.
If they had announced these kinds of things last year at NAB or even IBC, they wouldn't have been taken seriously. But to have working cameras in the booth, a Peter Jackson demo, nearly 2000 (I'm guessing, was around 1700 on morning of day 2 I think) cameras on order, working software, Final Cut native support already working....Red's level of credibility is MUCH higher now.
Considering the new markets Red is entering, Sony (in particular*), Panasonic, JVC & Canon won't be resting quite as comfortably post NAB as they have in years past. While Red has yet to ship reliable cameras in bulk, they are right on the cusp of shipping first cameras to clients. The next 6 months should be very telling for Red, and very informative for their competitors.
I would hope/expect that the pricing on all these new items would be as similarly aggressive as the Red One is compared to other professional HD+ cameras. Will this NAB put a dent in other high end camera sales/rentals this year? Will anybody decide to wait on buying a 4K Sony projector to see what Red comes out with, considering how aggressive the Red One's pricing is in comparison to, say, the F23 (at roughly 10x the price)?
Push the Big Red button, indeed.
-mike
* - since Sony makes 4K projectors, the F23, the F900R/F950 cameras, small professional cameras, displays, etc. - all stuff Red is taking on now
Update - somebody pointed out this:
In the comments somebody pointed out this:
Westinghouse's 56-inch 4x 1080p LCD - Engadget
...at about $10K estimated price point, minimum.
FACTS
Aside from new accessories coming from Red (separate article coming), Red announced 3 new classes of upcoming products. To be precise and accurate, I'm going to directly quote Ted Schilowitz, the spokesperson for Red:
1.) A "professional pocket camera" - also referred to elsewhere as a handheld camera
2.) A "new line of 4K projectors"
3.) A "new line of 4K displays"
I asked "Plural on both?" he said "Plural on both."
No timeline, no pricing, no features on any of that beyond the obvious. At this point, I think they've learned about saying too much too early, so they are just putting it out there.
100% SPECULATIVE CONJECTURE
My tea leaf reading based on those statements:
1.) "Professional pocket camera" - Ted was clear to point out "PROFESSIONAL" - NOT a prosumer camera, a professional camera. I think he said something about not plastic, too. Therefore high quality and not cheap. "Pocket" - not handheld, not small form factor, the word "pocket" was explicitly used, so that implies a pretty small camera to me. So if it is small, I'd guess that would imply it has to fit in your pocket with the lens on it, right? And if the lens on it (presumably fixed I'm guessing, otherwise what mount is small enough to fit a lens on it in your pocket?) is small enough that the whole thing fits in your pocket, would that not imply a smaller sized sensor? And if a smaller sensor, wouldn't that imply lower res? If Red One is as small as they could make a 4K camera, wouldn't pocket sized have to be lower capability anyway with fewer electronics/power/image processing? Therefore lower res as well? All conjecture based on "pocket" - I dunno if that will all logically follow from there...
2.) 4K projectors - man, that's takin' the fight right into Sony's face, as they are the only 4K projectors presently on the market (although I keep hearing rumblings about others under development). I didn't get a chance to research projectors at NAB. But if the pricing of it is in line with how Red prices other stuff...is it possible to build a 4K projector for under $20K-$25K? I hear the bulbs are wickedly expensive, some $1000s of dollars apiece for a high intensity Xenon lamp, which spectrally is the way to go. And a LINE of 4K projectors - we don't know if they are talking about something powerful enough for theatrical applications, or business applications (DI work, medical & industrial visualization?), or even home applications (based on the arc angles of human vision, how big a screen do I need to even SEE 4K if sitting 10-15 feet away?). And other than theatrical distribution, where would 4K footage be coming from? Video cards are soooooo not up to doing 4K at decent frame rates these days, which leads us to...
3.) 4K displays - for editorial and VFX work, these'd be great - to FINALLY see all the res of what you're working on. Wait a minute, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself - are these computer displays, video/image displays, or both? Unknown at this point in time. An especially large concern of mine would be what the interface is - the only known video interface for 4K at this time is a big fat wad of HD-SDI dual links - a total of 8 to be exact - Sony's 4K projector is actually 4096x2160, which is the DCI spec for 4K, which is four dual link 2048x1080 images set up in quads. Kind of a hassle. Is that what we'd have to use for an interface for video stuff? That'd require some new hardware, to say the least. And when they say line of displays, my eyes light up on that one - I'd love to see a 32"-36" 4K display for doing post work, and a bigger (50-80 inch) display for client, coloring and living room viewing. The thought of the price point on that could get pretty scary, too. For computer displays, there are twin dual link DVI to drive 3840x2160 (or is it x2400?) displays, but frame rates can be an issue - I think we had something like 16Hz at best at IBC trying to drive a 3840xwhatever display from a computer video card. DEFINITELY takes a high end, specialty video card.
Notice they haven't said diddly about display tech either - LCD, LCoS, plasma, etc., just "4K," "displays," and "projectors" - the rest is all speculation.
If they had announced these kinds of things last year at NAB or even IBC, they wouldn't have been taken seriously. But to have working cameras in the booth, a Peter Jackson demo, nearly 2000 (I'm guessing, was around 1700 on morning of day 2 I think) cameras on order, working software, Final Cut native support already working....Red's level of credibility is MUCH higher now.
Considering the new markets Red is entering, Sony (in particular*), Panasonic, JVC & Canon won't be resting quite as comfortably post NAB as they have in years past. While Red has yet to ship reliable cameras in bulk, they are right on the cusp of shipping first cameras to clients. The next 6 months should be very telling for Red, and very informative for their competitors.
I would hope/expect that the pricing on all these new items would be as similarly aggressive as the Red One is compared to other professional HD+ cameras. Will this NAB put a dent in other high end camera sales/rentals this year? Will anybody decide to wait on buying a 4K Sony projector to see what Red comes out with, considering how aggressive the Red One's pricing is in comparison to, say, the F23 (at roughly 10x the price)?
Push the Big Red button, indeed.
-mike
* - since Sony makes 4K projectors, the F23, the F900R/F950 cameras, small professional cameras, displays, etc. - all stuff Red is taking on now
Update - somebody pointed out this:
In the comments somebody pointed out this:
Westinghouse's 56-inch 4x 1080p LCD - Engadget
...at about $10K estimated price point, minimum.
Comments:
I'm feeling the excitement, as well, Mike. I think a year ago Red was a "company that was going to make a camera." It's obvious now they are a real company with more than one product line coming out. Their approach is VERY aggressive, but I would love for an American company to take back some of that marketshare!
Go team Red!
Go team Red!
Since they're in the business of making digital 35mm cameras, I would rather that they came out with a "16mm" version and keep cost below 15 grand for the whole kit and caboodle.
They made the Camry, now give us a Tercel.
TM
They made the Camry, now give us a Tercel.
TM
And next year at NAB we'll see the announcement of the next generation console made by RED: The REDStation, eating your marketshare at 4k :)
As for the high data rates for pushing data to the TV and projector... It got me thinking...
WHY NOT REDCODE RAW? Send redcode via USB2 or firewire and do the Redcode raw to Raw conversion in the unit itself for display. Since it is a professional unit and since Red is one of the few doing 4K anyway, why not become the standard?
This would be an ideal way to get Redcode to be the language of cinema as a theater could just get a drive with an entire feature on it and play it directly.
WHY NOT REDCODE RAW? Send redcode via USB2 or firewire and do the Redcode raw to Raw conversion in the unit itself for display. Since it is a professional unit and since Red is one of the few doing 4K anyway, why not become the standard?
This would be an ideal way to get Redcode to be the language of cinema as a theater could just get a drive with an entire feature on it and play it directly.
I am really excited about this pocket camera. Hopefully it will end up with a smaller price point than the full RED, which honestly I can't afford right now, or in the foreseeable future.
concerning the pocket cam:
something the size of a minima with super16 sized 2K sensor would be a nice addition. PL-mount is fine, you need some decent lenses anyway to pull focus.
http://www.aaton.com/products/film/aminima/aminimatechspecs.php
++ chris
something the size of a minima with super16 sized 2K sensor would be a nice addition. PL-mount is fine, you need some decent lenses anyway to pull focus.
http://www.aaton.com/products/film/aminima/aminimatechspecs.php
++ chris
Does anyone see the pocket cam as a call from DP's for a high resolution video assist for s16, 35mm, and s35mm or is RED all about moving away from film?
Just a thought...
Just a thought...
56in 3840x2160 annouced more than a year ago, hasn't been commercially produced as yet, appears to be 'delayed'.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/10/17/cmo-to-ship-47-inch-quad-hd-1440p-lcd-in-2007/
Could be Chi Mei couldn't find a suitable graphics card to drive them, assuming you could get any source material...cart N wheel scenario?
Matrox had a card for the IBM/Chi Mei 22in 200dpi LCD, but it has a list price of nearly $3k.
With much more powerful/newer GPU's just now coming on the to market now (and more powerful still later this year), I would expect the GPU card problem to be non-existent soon enough :). Affordable solution however...that's a bit "if".
Pocket HD camcorder? It can't really be pocket sized, it would absolutely require a sensor of the size of a pocket sized camcorder. Therefore, it would have horrible dynamic range, horrible grainy, high noise in all but the more controlled lighting situations.
Unless a Fuji F30/F31fd type 'super CCD' can be licensed from Fuji for such a pocket camcorder, you'd be stuck with below true 2k resoltuion. Of what use is a ISO100 or lower sensor in a pocket 'pro' cam? It needs to be able to shoot low noise, have decent DR @ISO200 or greater.
gm
http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/10/17/cmo-to-ship-47-inch-quad-hd-1440p-lcd-in-2007/
Could be Chi Mei couldn't find a suitable graphics card to drive them, assuming you could get any source material...cart N wheel scenario?
Matrox had a card for the IBM/Chi Mei 22in 200dpi LCD, but it has a list price of nearly $3k.
With much more powerful/newer GPU's just now coming on the to market now (and more powerful still later this year), I would expect the GPU card problem to be non-existent soon enough :). Affordable solution however...that's a bit "if".
Pocket HD camcorder? It can't really be pocket sized, it would absolutely require a sensor of the size of a pocket sized camcorder. Therefore, it would have horrible dynamic range, horrible grainy, high noise in all but the more controlled lighting situations.
Unless a Fuji F30/F31fd type 'super CCD' can be licensed from Fuji for such a pocket camcorder, you'd be stuck with below true 2k resoltuion. Of what use is a ISO100 or lower sensor in a pocket 'pro' cam? It needs to be able to shoot low noise, have decent DR @ISO200 or greater.
gm
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