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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.

YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com

All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.

Friday, June 08, 2007

Initial Comparison- MOTU's V3HD specs vs AJA's IO HD specs 

I had this in another article a moment ago, and decided it was worth breaking out to be its own post.

I was discussing the new MOTU V3HD, and realized how similar it was in concept and functionality to the AJA IO HD.

OK, since it'll come up, here's my first, non-conclusive nor comprehensive, top-of-my-head differentiation between the two just based on the specs available. There are small, refinement differences, but these are the ones I think are significant. This is an ever evolving document, so don't take it as gospel - I keep adding pieces to it, and you're welcome to chime in with your thoughts as well in the Comments (link after end of article).

Major Similarities between V3HD and IO HD:

-SDI & HD-SDI based capture & output
-analog component/s-video/composite capture & output
-up/downconversion
-can transcode to a high quality codec in hardware
-FireWire800 based connection to host computer
-can function as standalone converter
-reference loopthrough
-RS-422 deck control
-other myriad audio/video features
-both can output simultaneous HD & SD over SDI taps
-both can output two SDI or two HD-SDI
-both have 4 channel analog audio I/O via XLR connectors
-both will work as standalone format converters - we're winners either way, this is very, very useful

Potential Advantages of V3HD over IO HD

-DVCPRO HD is an industry standard, ProRes is not (but AJA does support DVCPRO HD editing via FCP)
-Mac and Windows (IO HD is Mac only)
-EDIT to clarify - simultaneous output of standard and high defintion analog simultaneously - IO HD can't do that, as it only has a single component output set.
-optical audio in/out
-at least 8 analog in/out - which allows for affordable 5.1 surround output (hey, it is MOTU, audio is what they DO)
-FW400 as well as FW800
-generally more audio goodness, as that is MOTU's specialty
-in general a few more discrete outputs - SDI and HD-SDI are separate instead of combo, as are the component outputs (HD & SD component outputs, not a single switchable set) - but wait, see below....

Potential Advantages of IO HD over V3HD:

-uses ProRes, which is markedly higher quality than DVCPRO HD (but not industry standard, and Mac FCP 6 specific). This is a biggie. ProRes is full raster and 10 bit in HQ mode, DVCPRO HD is...not.
-HDMI in as well as out (V3 HD is HDMI out only)
-IO HD has cross convert capabilities that V3HD doesn't appear to have (if it did they'd probably say so)
-RCA stereo pair for simple monitoring
-a single set of cables for connecting to monitors..again see below

One other aspect that's a little fuzzier to quantify, but AJA has been making Mac/PC video specific hardware for a long time and has a very strong track record in that specific category. Their hardware and software are a known quantity (and known to be high quality). They partnered with Apple on this, the same way they did on the prior Io SD device - lends confidence it'll work very smoothly - the usual AJA way.

MOTU, on the other hand, has been around for a long time and is similarly well regarded in the audio industry, also has strong ties to Apple, BUT...AFAIK this is their first major video product, with all the implied Version 1.0 potential issues of a new product in a new market sector for them - their strong track record is audio, not video.

In the "different not necessarily better" * category:

-V3HD is intended as rackmount or desktop gear, while IO HD has a handle for easy transport and is meant to sit on a desktop.
-IO HD uses BNC connectors for AES/EBU audio I/O, V3HD uses a dense 25 pin type connector that you'd need a breakout cable for
-V3HD has separate sets of component connections for connection standard and high def. If you have two, separate monitors, this is great. If you have a single multi-mode monitor (like my JVC VT-1910CG), this is a pain, as you'd have to switch cables around to do standard and high def. On the other hand, the IO HD has a single set that are software switchable (no recabling required) so if you have a multi-mode monitor like mine, just leave it hooked up and you're good to go. BUT...if you want to drive two analog monitors, one in HD and one in SD, no dice.
-in exchanging emails with AJA on this, they pointed out that the IO HD has a clean, simple front display. Granted. The V3HD has a lot more discrete information displayed - is that more useful information, or just clutter? Client bling or inefficient, overkill and busy? Judgement call, personal preference. There's aspects of the detail V3HD gives I like, there's areas where I see they could convey the information more efficiently. But the information given is very thorough and discrete, and the geekier side of my soul likes that too.
-if you want to go beyond 4 channels of analog audio, you'd need a breakout cable from another 25 pin connector (but at least you can, IO HD doesn't have that many analog audio outputs). Nod, if an inconvenient one, to V3HD, since it will more affordably do 6 channels of analog audio out for surround. While you certainly can do it from AES/EBU, it is frightfully more expensive based on my recent research.

* (one could argue which is better, and I don't want to argue over it here...yet. For now, I'm OK calling them different, and although it may be that one has greater utility than the other, it is easily envisionable...blah blah see right below)

Winner? Either "nope", "not yet", "it depends", but ultimately "can't tell yet"

...so it isn't clear which one is definitely "better" to my mind, it would depend on the user and usage scenario to differentiate (as well as the price), since I can easily envision multiple scenarios where either would be preferable to the other. In THEORY: On Mac? Got FCP 6? Not worried about 5.1 surround monitoring? Want/can use ProRes on the project? IO HD is lookin' good! On Windows? Or a Mac on FCP 5? Or doing surround, and want to monitor affordably? Need an analog HD output and an analog SD output? Want to see exactly what's up with all of your connections? A heavy audio kinda guy? MOTU V3HD is lookin' damn shiny. As usual, we're talkin' 'bout a horses for courses kind of thing. Also keep in mind...neither of these products has shipped yet. While both companies have good track records of shipping solid products, either or both of them could conceivably blow chunks in actual use, so keep in mind this is all complete conjecture based on published specs. And, as always, price matters.

I'm guessing, since it was just announced and they only have nice Photoshop mockups online, that V3HD is further from shipping than IO HD, since we saw fully working units of IO HD at NAB, and those are scheduled to ship in July for $3495 list.

OK, that's good for now, I'm heading out for the evening. Chime away using the link below with your thoughts and preferences, I'll revisit this over the weekend probably. Anybody want to guess at the price? Feel free in the comments, keeping in mind AJA is coming out at $3495 with theirs.

If there's any known technical inaccuracies in all of this, PLEASE do let me know - I'm just tryin' to get it right.

-mike

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Comments:
Mike your site is chocking Firefox again.
 
If I had to guess this will shop at around $2495. MOTU has great gear and is always pretty price concious.
 
Yep, Mike your prolific writing is playing havoc with Firefox.

However as a work around if you add HD4NDS as a live bookmark then you can select a story one at a time and not suffer the lock-ups.
 
I have used MOTU Traveler for 2 years. It is not the most fancy DAC in terms of the quality, but it surely is one of the most versatile audio I/O, which is also quite cost effective and portable, even with the firewire bus-powered.

I wish, IoHD comes with 8 channel analog audio output instead of 4, and 4 channel analog audio input with mic pre + phantom power, then if possible, optical/co-axial S/PDIF would be very handy, too. I almost feel these audio I/O functions are must for IoHD.

DVCPRO HD doesn't cut it. We all know that DVCPRO HD can't be a mastering codec as much as HDCAM. ProRes, even at 145 Mbps is totally different from DVCPRO HD and HDCAM. Essentially, ProResHQ, HDCAM SR, Uncompressed 10 bit, these are the codecs for mastering purpose. (Unfortunately, Sony provide neither HDCAM SR nor HDCAM codec in software form.)

If V3HD can deliver ProResHQ, it would be truely competitive against IoHD, but with DVCPRO HD, it is quite a "sorry-product".

I really need the audio features of V3HD on IoHD. What cat I do?
 
What if the main app of the Final Cut Studio suite at this particular seat isn't FCP but Soundtrack?
 
and then let's look at both

a) direct blit from GFX to video - Both NO
b) uncompressed IO - Both NO

unimpressed. Might work as an audio IO box for a finishing station indeed (where you might want HD monitoring) - but a proper SDI-enabled video board would have made this redundant.
 
*Pure Speculation*
What if the V3HD could show up as just a DVCPROHD deck over firewire?

If it did that then it might integrate with avid and other editing packages.
 
This note from the AJA site.
"Special Note Regarding ProRes 422:
Capturing HD resolution ProRes 422 from an HD source requires the use of a qualified capture card and a Mac Pro with an Intel Xeon processor. Real-time capture and transcoding of HD to ProRes 422 is not supported on Power Mac G4 or G5 towers.
>>>
I also wonder what the drive requirements are for ProRes...
Would a Lacie FW800 do it?
 
http://www.freshdv.com/2007/06/moto-v3hd-all-in-one-video-audio-io-fw-interface.h

tml

Motu informed me that they are looking into the possibility of a ProRes codec

addition, and the V3HD does include a USB port for firmware updates. Expect the

product to be available sometime in Q3 2007, pricing info has not yet been

released.
 
If you want to capture reliabely with this sort of hardware you really need a RAID solution preferabely RAID 5 for drive redundancy. I have an IO sdi solution and have been using it for nearly 2 years reliabely on set. I also have a kona 3 and its really amazing. Its been capturing HD since I got it, (i had a decklink hd plus before) but the capture is all about the drives. I use a 16 drive fibre RAID for HD. The IO is now hooked up to a 5 drive esata RAID and doesn't miss a beat. People use LUTs (look up tables) for the camera for serious work and use DPX format for film or uncompressed 444 or 422 for video. AJA is also playing in a very different arena, supply video chips now for flame, flint, inferno, avid and their own aja products. For broadcast this means AJA are becoming the standard. AJA is also supported for Media 100. Pro res is a quicktime solution, i'm using it in after effects as we speak. They both look like great products, people after 5.1 should use and audio solution. i'm getting the IO HD simply for codec transparency with other systems. I 've keyed dvcpro hd versus using the sdi out of a varicam and sdi produces greater results.
 
First time I've seen tri level sync input on an audio box, don't see it on Apogee, nor UA and word clock out. does 23.98Psf. looks like the missing link for audio post to me. feed trilevel from AJA gen10 to motu box, lock up the rest of the studio to wordclock out (and LTC) while monitoring DVCProHD which is a fine codec to mix to.
Doug Beal, Nashville TN
 
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