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High Definition Video for Independent Filmmakers
A How To Guide for Digital Filmmakers
Welcome all! This is my blog to share my latest research,
thoughts, etc. on utilizing HD for independent filmmaking.
YES, I am available for consulting
Contact me at mike@hdforindies.com
All content copyright 2004-2007 Mike Curtis.
Tuesday, July 24, 2007
Red Update - Soderbergh shooting on Red NOW, DP of "24" amazed by Red
Some tidbits as Red gets closer to shipping (hopefully in a month or so, give or take a week?) Soderbergh is probably shooting right now as I write this in Spain on his prototype Reds, Jim Jannard posted on RedUser.net last night:
Steady progress... - Reduser.net:
"We are making steady progress getting the camera ready for production. As we stated previously, some features will not be enabled with the 1st cameras shipping. All updates will be done as features are enabled through a download and USB or Compact Flash to the camera. It is really easy. Slip in the card, turn the camera on, and say 'yes' when it asks you if you want to upgrade to the new software.
We are very, very happy with image quality at this point and still think we can improve some as time goes on.
This has been (and still is) a huge undertaking. It is a project worthy of our best effort. We appreciate everyone's patience. We do not expect another schedule slip at this time (things can change).
Jim"
later in that same thread:
Steven Soderbergh starts shooting in Spain in 8 hours. He is flying without a net (no backup plan). Just RED ONE's. He will be recording 4k REDCODE RAW to Compact Flash. Wish him (and all of us) luck.
Jim
Somewhere along the line, I missed when Rodney Charters, cinematographer on "24" said about the Red One:
I have had the opportunity to test he RED ONE camera over the past few weeks, including direct comparison to the same film I shoot on '24'. All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing.
Then recently, Mark Neveldine and Brian Taylor (writer/director and cinematographer on Crank) said:
Film is dead. And by the way, so is video. The word is getting out that RED is the future, but for us it is right now. After holding these bad boys in our hands and putting the cameras through the full Neveldine/Taylor acid test our faith in the mad scientists at RED labs is unlimited. We're committed to RED for every project we've got in the pipeline."
Mike's Comments: OK, that Soderbergh is willing to shoot with prototype Red Ones without an alternative plan speaks very highly of his faith. Soderbergh has been a strong digital advocate for quite some time, and after projects like 3 Ocean's 11 movies, Traffic, and Solaris, he can pick whatever he wants.
Rodney's comments are high praise indeed, coming from a highly placed professional in the field. That he compares it directly to film and is still very impressed bodes very well indeed. That he historically shoots film, and still likes Red, is VERY encouraging.
Neveldine and Taylor are strong digital advocates (Crank was shot on F900 if I recall correctly), and I don't know what their film shooting history is or isn't, but seeing the pictures of one of the guys roller blading with a Red One tells me a lot about their gung ho attitude.
Technically, if shooting to 8 GB Compact Flash (I'm guessing at the size Soderbergh is using, dunno) at 24fps (presumably at 27 MB/sec according to Graeme's last statement I saw on the matter, lets go with that for now) allows for a hair over 4 1/2 minutes of footage per CF card. Lame by video standards, but a reasonable short load for a film camera. That's a short load, but considering you can carry a fistful of them for a day's narrative shooting, or have all the media you need for the afternoon in your shirt pocket, that's not bad! Oh - and don't forget, that's 4K res footage you've got in your inner jeans change pocket.
Bigger ones to follow in time, Red RAM to follow in time (64GB solid state, should yield about 36 minutes of 24p footage).
This makes me itchy to start playing with a Red as soon as humanly possible.
: )
-mike
Steady progress... - Reduser.net:
"We are making steady progress getting the camera ready for production. As we stated previously, some features will not be enabled with the 1st cameras shipping. All updates will be done as features are enabled through a download and USB or Compact Flash to the camera. It is really easy. Slip in the card, turn the camera on, and say 'yes' when it asks you if you want to upgrade to the new software.
We are very, very happy with image quality at this point and still think we can improve some as time goes on.
This has been (and still is) a huge undertaking. It is a project worthy of our best effort. We appreciate everyone's patience. We do not expect another schedule slip at this time (things can change).
Jim"
later in that same thread:
Steven Soderbergh starts shooting in Spain in 8 hours. He is flying without a net (no backup plan). Just RED ONE's. He will be recording 4k REDCODE RAW to Compact Flash. Wish him (and all of us) luck.
Jim
Somewhere along the line, I missed when Rodney Charters, cinematographer on "24" said about the Red One:
I have had the opportunity to test he RED ONE camera over the past few weeks, including direct comparison to the same film I shoot on '24'. All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing.
Then recently, Mark Neveldine and Brian Taylor (writer/director and cinematographer on Crank) said:
Film is dead. And by the way, so is video. The word is getting out that RED is the future, but for us it is right now. After holding these bad boys in our hands and putting the cameras through the full Neveldine/Taylor acid test our faith in the mad scientists at RED labs is unlimited. We're committed to RED for every project we've got in the pipeline."
Mike's Comments: OK, that Soderbergh is willing to shoot with prototype Red Ones without an alternative plan speaks very highly of his faith. Soderbergh has been a strong digital advocate for quite some time, and after projects like 3 Ocean's 11 movies, Traffic, and Solaris, he can pick whatever he wants.
Rodney's comments are high praise indeed, coming from a highly placed professional in the field. That he compares it directly to film and is still very impressed bodes very well indeed. That he historically shoots film, and still likes Red, is VERY encouraging.
Neveldine and Taylor are strong digital advocates (Crank was shot on F900 if I recall correctly), and I don't know what their film shooting history is or isn't, but seeing the pictures of one of the guys roller blading with a Red One tells me a lot about their gung ho attitude.
Technically, if shooting to 8 GB Compact Flash (I'm guessing at the size Soderbergh is using, dunno) at 24fps (presumably at 27 MB/sec according to Graeme's last statement I saw on the matter, lets go with that for now) allows for a hair over 4 1/2 minutes of footage per CF card. Lame by video standards, but a reasonable short load for a film camera. That's a short load, but considering you can carry a fistful of them for a day's narrative shooting, or have all the media you need for the afternoon in your shirt pocket, that's not bad! Oh - and don't forget, that's 4K res footage you've got in your inner jeans change pocket.
Bigger ones to follow in time, Red RAM to follow in time (64GB solid state, should yield about 36 minutes of 24p footage).
This makes me itchy to start playing with a Red as soon as humanly possible.
: )
-mike
Labels: Red
Comments:
Soderbergh is prob. using 16GB cards. 9 minutes of footage per card. They're less than $200. So why are 16GB P2 cards $900?
You really are behind, aren't you Mike? Those 64GB flash drives are now 96GB flash drives.
Ben, not sure there are 16GB cards that are fast enough yet (they have to be the high end ones - 300x).
Ben, not sure there are 16GB cards that are fast enough yet (they have to be the high end ones - 300x).
wonder if it will be as good a BUBBLE...
now that was a digital experiment gone BAD, verrrry BAD
ps
Zodiac was lookin good, though....
now that was a digital experiment gone BAD, verrrry BAD
ps
Zodiac was lookin good, though....
The only main concern with RED, for me, is the release date. It sounds revolutionary, but it should've been out a year ago. Its still vaporware for us. I'm undecided on waiting for RED, which on paper is THE camera, or go for the Panasonic HPX500. Budget wise, they are close. While the Panasonic is technically a much inferior camera, it is already available with a proven workflow and NLE integration. Having seen HVX 200 footage on the big screen, shot with the cheap stock lens, I imagine HPX with a decent cine lens to measure quite well in the cinema...
Question is: If I was to pre-order now, when would I see my RED? Will it be that much of an improvement for the big screen, compared to a HPX with decent lens?
This is my independent filmmaker dilema...
Question is: If I was to pre-order now, when would I see my RED? Will it be that much of an improvement for the big screen, compared to a HPX with decent lens?
This is my independent filmmaker dilema...
'Zodiac' was shoot on Viper, yes?
Re Red One: I despise it's aesthetics
as much as I despise most Apple GUIs
- I know, I wallow in the tiniest of
minorities - but what bugs the most
about the Red hyperbole is over-use
of words such as 'revolutionary',
especially coming out of the mouths
of experienced DPs, cinematographers,
etc.; it sounds almost childish.
And lest we forget that at least
one of those Ones is going to be
purchased by a competitor's R&D
dept. purely rip it apart, ascertain
why it's possible to produce it
so cheaply, and to them mimic the
technology to produce an alternative, cheaper.
I will happily except a couple of Red Ones
as gifts, though. ;)
Darren.
Director, X-GF Media
Re Red One: I despise it's aesthetics
as much as I despise most Apple GUIs
- I know, I wallow in the tiniest of
minorities - but what bugs the most
about the Red hyperbole is over-use
of words such as 'revolutionary',
especially coming out of the mouths
of experienced DPs, cinematographers,
etc.; it sounds almost childish.
And lest we forget that at least
one of those Ones is going to be
purchased by a competitor's R&D
dept. purely rip it apart, ascertain
why it's possible to produce it
so cheaply, and to them mimic the
technology to produce an alternative, cheaper.
I will happily except a couple of Red Ones
as gifts, though. ;)
Darren.
Director, X-GF Media
Darren -
good luck with that request.
>:D
As for rip apart and mimic, keep in mind that even if Sony/Panasonic/Thomson/etc. COULD produce a camera at a low price, they'd have to decimate their existing pricing structure in order to do so - it would be a massive, destructive shift to their business models.
Not to mention Red patents, legal & R&D war chests, etc.
-mike
good luck with that request.
>:D
As for rip apart and mimic, keep in mind that even if Sony/Panasonic/Thomson/etc. COULD produce a camera at a low price, they'd have to decimate their existing pricing structure in order to do so - it would be a massive, destructive shift to their business models.
Not to mention Red patents, legal & R&D war chests, etc.
-mike
Have to say in my experiance ice bags on a camera usually means the camera's still a couple years away frrom being production ready.
Jeff - if you read all the details in the report, Soderbergh is working with hand built prototypes with the prior sensor package design that doesn't have peltier coolers....as the current, production intended design does.
A known issue, already addressed, and only necessary due to the >100 degree temperatures at the shoot.
-mike
A known issue, already addressed, and only necessary due to the >100 degree temperatures at the shoot.
-mike
I have no doubt that Sony/Panasonic/Whoever could have made this camera five years ago. I have no doubt that they could make it now, and probably in a fairly short timeframe. They don't need to pull a Red apart to find out how it's done. As Mike says, the issue is their current lineup and market strategy.
Sergio - this one's easy.
"Should have been out a year ago" - huh? According to whom? It was just specs and plans and mockups at NAB last April, that is just 15 months ago. This is not a light undertaking.
Vaporware implies never coming to market - there are test units in the field, right now. Being shot by Steven Soderbergh's crew. The DP on 24 is jazzed, the Crank guys love it, Peter Jackson shot footage on it, etc.
If you need a camera this minute, HPX500 fits into that budget range. If you can wait for Red, the 4096x2304 pixels it records should put the 960x540 pixelshifted HPX to shame. If you've seen the Red footage projected at 2K or 4K this would be an easy choice. In no way shape or form will the resolution, dynamic range, noise levels, etc. of the HPX500 compare evenly with the Red One. I am very, very confident in that statement.
Keep in mind that HPX500 also doesn't take a cine lens - it is a B4 mount. Cine adaptor? Loose some more sharpness and light.
If you place an order now there are some thousands in front of you - so I'd guess sometime next year.
Rent one from someone who has one in a few months if your timetable is close.
Stephen - could the biggies have done this? Maybe. 5 years ago? Doubt it. At this price point 5 years ago? No way. Do give some credit to Mysterium team (whoever they are), and Graeme for the Redcode stuff - it is top notch, up-to-the-second tech.
-mike
"Should have been out a year ago" - huh? According to whom? It was just specs and plans and mockups at NAB last April, that is just 15 months ago. This is not a light undertaking.
Vaporware implies never coming to market - there are test units in the field, right now. Being shot by Steven Soderbergh's crew. The DP on 24 is jazzed, the Crank guys love it, Peter Jackson shot footage on it, etc.
If you need a camera this minute, HPX500 fits into that budget range. If you can wait for Red, the 4096x2304 pixels it records should put the 960x540 pixelshifted HPX to shame. If you've seen the Red footage projected at 2K or 4K this would be an easy choice. In no way shape or form will the resolution, dynamic range, noise levels, etc. of the HPX500 compare evenly with the Red One. I am very, very confident in that statement.
Keep in mind that HPX500 also doesn't take a cine lens - it is a B4 mount. Cine adaptor? Loose some more sharpness and light.
If you place an order now there are some thousands in front of you - so I'd guess sometime next year.
Rent one from someone who has one in a few months if your timetable is close.
Stephen - could the biggies have done this? Maybe. 5 years ago? Doubt it. At this price point 5 years ago? No way. Do give some credit to Mysterium team (whoever they are), and Graeme for the Redcode stuff - it is top notch, up-to-the-second tech.
-mike
Absoulte kudos to the Red Team, particulalrly to Graeme, they've done an amazing job. To have started up from scratch and made this camera within the timeframe is extraordinary.
My point is, the technology to do this has existed for a while. You look at Panasonic's R&D department and it put's Sony's to shame, let alone the Red Team! I'm sure if they'd wanted to they could have done exactly this a few years back (5 is a bit arbitrary, but hey!)
As for cost, we know it wouldn't have been at this price-point for the reasons you stated.
My point is, the technology to do this has existed for a while. You look at Panasonic's R&D department and it put's Sony's to shame, let alone the Red Team! I'm sure if they'd wanted to they could have done exactly this a few years back (5 is a bit arbitrary, but hey!)
As for cost, we know it wouldn't have been at this price-point for the reasons you stated.
The acorn of my point, I suppose,
is that, I hope One is the start
of relatively cheap 4K cameras and
not the revolutionary singularity
for the next couple of decades some
folks espouse it to be. Kudos to
Red, of course, for having faith
with the projects, but that design ...
it's looks like someone gave Tim
Burton too many bad drugs and black
LEGO and said: 'Do your worst.'
Darren.
is that, I hope One is the start
of relatively cheap 4K cameras and
not the revolutionary singularity
for the next couple of decades some
folks espouse it to be. Kudos to
Red, of course, for having faith
with the projects, but that design ...
it's looks like someone gave Tim
Burton too many bad drugs and black
LEGO and said: 'Do your worst.'
Darren.
.....but that design ...
it's looks like someone gave Tim
Burton too many bad drugs and black
LEGO and said: 'Do your worst.' ......
They've already come a long way... I think the design looks much more solid and sober know. In the beginning it truly was hideous, but now, no complaints from me.
it's looks like someone gave Tim
Burton too many bad drugs and black
LEGO and said: 'Do your worst.' ......
They've already come a long way... I think the design looks much more solid and sober know. In the beginning it truly was hideous, but now, no complaints from me.
Darren - so are you suggesting that you wouldn't shoot on the best bang/buck, most flexible/convenient post production path camera because....you don't like how the camera body looks?
; )
What matters to me is what is in front of the camera and what comes out the back, baby!
: )
-mike
; )
What matters to me is what is in front of the camera and what comes out the back, baby!
: )
-mike
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